The Laughter Clinic
The Laughter Clinic Podcast brings a refreshingly different approach to mental health education. Your host Mark McConville, is an Australian professional Comedian of 25+ years who also has a Masters Degree In Suicidology from Griffith University. Mark delivers you evidence-based self-care strategies, curated research insights, and meaningful conversations that inspire, educate and entertain.
The Laughter Clinic
Hope, Humour, and Evidence-Based Suicide Prevention with special guest Associate Professor Jacinta Hawgood.
In one of the most significant episodes in The Laughter Clinic Podcast's short history, host Mark McConville welcomes his mentor, Associate Professor Jacinta Hawgood (AISRAP, Griffith University), for an intimate and wide-ranging discussion about suicide prevention, research, and the integration of lived experience into clinical practice.
This powerful conversation explores the evolution of suicide prevention. Topics include: the STARS needs-based assessment protocol, integrating lived experience with clinical practice, Mates in Construction's peer-led model, debunking suicide myths, supporting the suicide prevention workforce, and why humour and hope belong in this space. Content warning: discusses suicide throughout.
• the power of laughter and connection for wellbeing
• validating distress and why asking about suicide helps
• debunking myths about attention-seeking and “planting ideas”
• Jacinta’s path into suicidology and AISRAP’s evolution
• postgraduate education in suicidology and sector skills
• lived experience integrating with clinical practice
• STARS P needs-based assessment and collaborative safety planning
• STARS Young Persons co-design and youth risk
• universal, selected, indicated prevention explained
• community engagement, cost barriers, and belonging
• ripple effects of suicide and proactive postvention
• Mates in Construction’s peer model and workplace programs
• sustaining the workforce, supervision, and self-care
• safe storytelling and advice for new advocates
To follow Jacinta's work:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacinta-hawgood-3539a617/
To learn more about AISRAP:
https://www.griffith.edu.au/griffith-health/australian-institute-suicide-research-prevention
To learn more about the STARS Protocol:
https://www.griffith.edu.au/griffith-health/australian-institute-suicide-research-prevention/systematic-tailored-assessment-for-responding-to-suicidality
To learn more about Mates In Construction:
https://mates.org.au
Website: www.thelaughterclinic.com.au
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thelaughterclinicAus
"If you or someone you know needs support, please contact one of these Australian mental health services. In an emergency, always call 000."
Lifeline Australia
Phone: 13 11 14 (24/7)
Web: lifeline.org.au
Suicide Call Back Service
Phone: 1300 659 467 (24/7)
Web: suicidecallbackservice.org.au
Beyond Blue
Phone: 1300 22 4636 (24/7)
Web: beyondblue.org.au
Kids Helpline (for people aged 5-25)
Phone: 1800 55 1800 (24/7)
Web: kidshelpline.com.au
MensLine Australia
Phone: 1300 78 99 78 (24/7)
Web: mensline.org.au
SANE Australia (complex mental health issues)
Phone: 1800 18 7263
Web: sane.org
QLife (LGBTIQ+ support)
Phone: 1800 184 527
Web: qlife.org.au
Open Arms (Veterans & Families Counselling)
Phone: 1800 011 046 (24/7)
Web: openarms.gov.au
1800RESPECT (sexual assault, domestic violence)
Phone: 1800 737 732 (24/7)
Web: 1800respect.org.au
Headspace (youth mental health, ages 12-25)
Phone: 1800 650 890
Web: headspace.org.au
13YARN (Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander crisis support)
Phone: 13 92 76 (13YARN) (24/7)
Web: 13yarn.org.au
Music by Hayden Smith
https://www.haydensmith.com
Welcome to the Laughter Clinic Podcast with comedians and pseudo psychologists Mark McConville. Bringing you practical, evidence-based self-care strategies, the latest research in mental health, along with conversations that inspire, educate, and entertain. This is the Laughter Clinic Podcast with your host, Mark McConville.
SPEAKER_04:Hi my friends, welcome to this episode of the Laughter Clinic Podcast. And today's conversation does actually come with a content warning as everything today is centered around suicide and suicide prevention, so listener discretion is advised. This episode may not be for you, and you know what? That is totally fine, it's totally understandable. But if you do stick around, you're gonna hear one of an incredibly powerful conversation because my guest today is very special to me this episode because we're very lucky to have associate professor and program director of suicidology at the Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention, which is based at Griffith University. That's right, my guest is Jacinta Holgood. Jacinda is a fully registered clinically endorsed psychologist and the program director as a student course convener of the grad student suicidology and the Master of Suicidology programs, which she actually jointly developed with Professor Delay, DAGA Delay back in 2001. Jacinda has extensive experience working in the development and implementation and evaluation of online suicide prevention, training and education. And she's also the lead author of the STARS protocol, which is the systematic tailored assessment for responding to suicidality, which we're going to chat about as well today. Justinna has worked on research and evaluation programs for organizations such as Beyond Blue, Roses in the Ocean, the Department of Veteran Affairs, Mates and Construction, Suicide Prevention Australia, Destrained Psychological Society, Queensland Corrective Services, Queensland Mental Health Commission, and even the Commonwealth Department of Health. You know, a lot of experience, a lot of people take notice of the work that this lady does. And she also has a reviewing role for peer-reviewed journals and has presented her research findings at a range of state, national, and international conferences, along with contributing to multiple government reports in the field of suicide prevention. So look, wild just into all of these things, you know, incredible, the body of work that uh she has put together. To me personally, she is someone who believed in me when I first met her back in 2014, and I was just a comedian wanting to explore the role of humor and laughter into helping to prevent suicide. Just Cinder was my senior lecturer and associate research supervisor during my master's degree, and she guided me through my thesis and my pilot study of my humor and laughter education program. And over the years, she has mentored me and helped me bridge the worlds that most people thought couldn't be bridged, and that is using humor and laughter education to help prevent suicide. She has dedicated her life to suicide prevention research, education, and clinical practice. And I've got to say I'm deeply honored and incredibly grateful to have her join me today. So if you work in the field of suicide prevention anywhere in the world, you would have heard of Cinder Horgood and the work that she has done. So look, whether you have a lived experience of suicide or suicidal behavior, you're supporting someone in their own struggles, you've lost someone to suicide, or maybe you work in this very challenging field, or maybe you're just someone who would like to know more about the complexities involved with helping to prevent suicide. This is a very powerful episode that I know you will get something out of. So, like I said, my friends, listener discretion is advised. Please join me in welcoming to the Laughter Clinic Podcast, Associate Professor Jacinda Hallgood. Jacinda Horgood, welcome to the Laughter Clinic Podcast. Great to see you. I'm so grateful for your time and uh really appreciate you being on. How are you going?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, hi Mark. Yeah, I'm good. Thank you.
SPEAKER_04:How was it, Chrissy, in New Year's?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was really good. Had a had a bit of a break. Uh clearly now we're back to the grindstone, but yeah, enjoyed, very much enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_04:Nice, nice. Okay, so uh I'm very conscious of your time. So um let's get straight into it. So all of the guests on the Laughter Clinic podcast get asked the same question to start with, and that centers around the saying laughter is the best medicine. Now, this is a saying that's been around for over 3,000 years, and now we have modern day research supporting the physical benefits of laughter and the psychological benefits of using your sense of humor as a coping mechanism and building resilience. So, as someone, you know, with the vast amount of experience you have in the field of mental health and suicide prevention, when you hear the term laughter is the best medicine, what does that conjure up for you?
SPEAKER_02:It reminds me of when I was a child at the first start.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because yeah, I've heard my parents, for example, saying, Yeah, laughter's the best medicine. Now, now always look for the positive and everything. Everything's glass half full. Doesn't mean you can't have your anger and distress and other emotions, but but certainly, yeah, when when you're a happy person, and then the message that happiness comes from within, you know, being such a big part of of my development and narrative, then you you really you really do start to be conscious of how good it feels when you do laugh. And and I always think of what we learned right through many, many kind of decades ago, through even the biological and physiological elements of therapy when you're looking at you know the physical response when you smile, even when you get into fits of laugh, you can actually experience, of course, the physiological uh elements of serotonin release, etc. And enduring, but you actually literally physically feel the benefits. So it means means definitely means that it can be a positive part of experiencing a good positive well-being.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, cool. I love the connection aspect of it, you know, like when you're connecting with your, you know, your your tribe, you know, your friends and family, the people that you share that sense of humor with. It's, you know, and even at the comedy club when you've got two or three hundred strangers or a thousand strangers in a room all laughing together, it's just powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's pretty powerful. It does remind me of of having attended some of your comedy gigs as well.
SPEAKER_02:And I I often have thought of that when when we're watching you and the other comedians, just you can see, you just have to look around the room and people share that connection of being in a happy place. It's almost like you're in a dome because there's that shared medicine is like contagious around the room. And as soon as someone has a belly laugh, even if you're not listening, or you've just gone to the toilet or the bar or something and come back out, you start laughing. Like they so definitely I think um it's a shared thing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, cool. Okay, so uh thank you for answering that. Now uh let's get into it. So for people, so someone that might be listening, right, who you know may be struggling with their own mental health personally, or they've got someone in their lives that they're they're worried about. What do you think is the the most important thing you'd like someone to know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, good question. There's so many things, of course, uh, but there's two elements to that. So so the person themselves experiencing kind of hopelessness and distress and potentially you know suicide ideation. I would say that every person who experiences that experiences it in a different way. And so we know from the kind of vast majority of people who've been there and have come through it that that it definitely there is hope and there's definitely another experience other than that one that can come to you. But definitely there are many different things that will work for different people. So deciding that it's temporary, for example, may not work for many people who their experiences very long term. So I'd say, I get it. Having experiences for so long, you feel completely trapped, engulfed, overwhelmed, and you know, it's like a pressure cookie, you just you're gonna implode, so you just can't keep going. And I would I would validate those feelings, and they need to know that that can be experienced, but that at the same time it it's something where there is we know there are interventions and help that can be responsive to that in a positive way, and it may be that I would say to someone that you've not yet found that, or maybe you feel exhausted because you've reached out so many times, or you've experienced so many different types of help, but that because we know so many stories of good help, that there definitely is help there, and it's it's yeah, I guess seeing it from a different lens that when you're feeling so overwhelmed, alone, helpless, worthless, etc., that these are vulnerabilities that can actually become your strength because the fact that you're here with us being so vulnerable in that space and is i is a strength because you're here. So yeah, so I guess there's there's a whole lot of messages, and different messages I I would I I think people need to be validated that their experience isn't going to be the same as someone else's, and that right now it is the trickiest thing they've ever experienced. And the majority of non-clinical responses today would be very much, you know, validating the person and and being there just to sit with them through those kind of quite distressing times.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's it's interesting that there's there's so much, you know, in society now the conversation around suicide is is a lot more prominent than what it may have been 20 or 30 years ago, which is fantastic with all of the days that we have and the Are You OK Day and all of the messages that are get out get out there. But it still seems like, you know, I I talk to people that don't work in the field of suicide prevention when I'm tripping around, and they there's still some misconceptions about suicide and still a lot of myths about suicide out there. Do you think there's one in particular that stands out for you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, good good question. There is there is one that I still haven't seen a huge amount of uh change uh with response to dispelling the myth mythical side, if you like, of it. For me, probably the biggest one is that when people speak about it, they're not gonna do it. Or the more they or the the it's kind of I guess wrapped up similarly with the attention-seeking one, you know, that that behaviour's just a cry for help or attention-seeking or whatever. And I I I think that while our mental health literacy generally, globally even has improved, which is an excellent thing with with its impacts and associations at least with reduced stigma, I think there still tends to be in, especially in the lay population, the the the belief that because if people are actually going on about it, I'm just gonna kill myself, you don't even care about me, and I'm just gonna take my life or whatever. Um it's not worth it anymore. None of you love me. I think people think that that's kind of an attention-seeking style thing. And I've had people in my clinical practice, people who who are are cares and people who really care for people reaching out and asking me, is that, at least they're going to the next step, is that a sign that they really will take their life? Because sometimes it sounds like they're just saying that because they want me to respond to them and to get attention.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I would always say, yeah, absolutely, it is a a real, real authentic desire to want you to know they're in psychological pain, they're they're not in a good space. So it's to that end, it's not a myth. It's it's a real experience, someone really communicating that they need that help.
SPEAKER_04:So Yeah, and I think the I think the the fact that we're moving towards educating people as much as we can about dispelling the myth that you don't directly ask somebody if they are contemplating suicide or have made suicidal plans. And I think that's a real important one, you know. Like when when I go out and do live presentations, I I talk about that and and to me that's one of the biggest myths, you know, that you that you don't ask someone, you know, and and we now know that to be incorrect.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that that as well is one slightly related, hey, that you know, you'll push someone over the edge if you if you like planting the thought in their mind. And and we know that's been debunked, und times in the literature as well, where you no harm can come about from from asking someone. And the most important finding surrounds our qualitative data hearing the narrative of people who've been there, so relying on lived experience to tell us that yeah, the fact that someone cared to ask the question is more even more encouraging for me to want to be able to reveal and disclose the the truth.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So and that's not of course in all situations, you know. For some people, they may not tell you the truth, of course, depending on where they're sitting in that space. But yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah, it's so incredibly complicated and complex, isn't it? You know, like just in the time that I've been involved with it, which is which is shadowed by the 25 plus years that you've been working in this field. I mean, seriously, just into so like it's a long time. Like what was there something that drew you, because it's such a specific niche field of to work in suicide prevention. Like, was there something that drew you to this to start with? From b you know, because I know you started out as a clinical psychologist and that sort of stuff, but to specialise in suicide prevention, there must have been something.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, look, probably more uh to me important to my life today is is the reasons for staying in the field, the complexity and all that stuff, which I'll get to, but to answer your question, yeah, like I was very young. I'd done social science, worked in juvenile justice, and I I spent at the same time studying psychology. And part of my experiences, even with my dissertation in my honor side degree, was about comparing the needs and unmet needs of we call back then juvenile delinquents, right? But of course, young people who were imprisoned. And social thesis was gathering data from them, uh, both the the the females and male prisons, which they don't have today, um, in Queensland, and hearing some of those stories about wanting to die, etc., and thinking there's so many opportunities, but it was so much shelved in the field of mental health on in ways that we could respond, particularly because there's a lot of stigma around being in prison in the first place. Well, they need to be punished, and why would we reach out to help someone who's experiencing, you know, not wanting to take their lives? So that was very much a part of my social work sort of days was studying psychology. But when I got a post as part of my uh scholarship in in my master's from Queensland Health out bush, remote working at remote, it was in charters towers, and that was where I was just decided I'd sink my teeth into Graham Martin's Professor Graham Martin's Keep Yourself Alive for GPs course and become a trainer. Did that, and that's my interest just really grew from there, and we we just had zero skills in the workforce, even my peers, right through to police, but from social workers nurses all up in Charles House, we there was very little around what to do. So this this program was one of the first. Well, there were others, of course, back in the late 90s, mid to late 90s, but it was one that um even though designed for GPs that we could pick up, and so that just got my passion going. Uh yeah, and then I was recruited to work at Ace Rap, Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention, where got straight into really getting interested in through the development of the postgrad and other training programs.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, AceWrap. So let's let's talk a bit about AceRap and was it Professor Diego DeLay, was Diego the one that actually brought you in the then director?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, correct. Yeah, so now emeritus, of course, but it is still with with Ace Rap from afar initially. But the uh recruited, it was it was basically the end of 1999 that I had my interview and I was appointed as a senior research assistant, working on a uh a quite a big statewide needs analysis through Queensland Health. It was actually cross-government department, a part of the youth suicide prevention strategy at the time. To look at the competencies, skills, knowledge, attitudes, aptitude uh across a whole range, across cross-sectoral multidisciplines that that would work, be working in suicide prevention. So I was on that project.
SPEAKER_04:Very were you in awe of Diego when you first met him? Because I I know when I first met him, I sat down with him for a couple of hours and like I was so grateful for his time to start with. And you I I came away from that meeting thinking, I I I've just met a really special human being.
SPEAKER_02:For sure, yeah. Yeah, look, he he he literally brought to Australia I mean, his leadership had gone for for many years, obviously globally, his reputation as well, uh hence his appointment at Griffith. But he he then he then really did make a mark, particularly first in Queensland, but then nationally, which is reflected in the now Suicide Prevention Australia's Year Delayo address, uh, which is part of conference proceedings. Yeah, certainly he he had this ability to has this ability to think really critically and in a 360-degree kind of way of understanding the phenomenon, which which wasn't seen before. And he brought culture and cultural interpretations to a typically and traditionally very much emphasized medicalized interpretation of suicide. So these elements and being able to see the person, because of course a few years after I started. We opened the life promotion clinic, which was the first ever outpatient clinic, uh, alternative to hospitalized-based care for those who who had made a suicide attempt. And we which ran for many years, and it was his ideation behind that model of care. Um the whole idea was to have kind of diversified responses, multimodal, holistic care for a person trying to address their needs. So it wasn't just psychiatry and psychology. So, but yeah, so it definitely I I learned a lot from him. And it was because of that being able to see a person more than just needing pharmacological kind of knee responses to their needs that that really I think reeled me in.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. And so now here we are 25 plus years later, for those listening that may not be aware of A-strap, the Australian Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention based at Griffith University. Can you just give our listeners a bit of a outline as to, you know, just leading into 2026, where is HRAP at now? And and and you know, what does the institute do? Like I know what you guys do, but for those of you that for those of you that listening, you know, let's give HRAP a plug.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yeah, look, um for for sure there's been some change since uh unfortunately when Diego had to leave in 2015 due to health concerns. So we we tried to continue as an independent centre for some time, but in 2018 we we merged, well, really not so much merged with the School of Psychology, but fell as an entity underneath the umbrella of our School of Applied Psychology. So now we have suicidology, psychology, and counselling under that school. So ASRAP's role is not only in being very expert and specialist at a research and educational level within the School of Applied Psychology, but also we're affiliated with and a member of the Griffith Center for Mental Health research. So it's it's it's kind of a nice way to be able to collaborate and engage with a whole range of other disciplines, you know, outside of the strictly ASRAP kind of agenda, but we still maintain that specialist expertise. Um we're small, of course. We we have excellent, we have leadership by the director of the World Health Organization, Professor Kyrie Colves, and we have Dr. Lick Bayless and Dr. Sadvi, and we have Dr. Vicky Ross, and we have a few other really important and valuable senior researchers and research assistants, and we have uh Wendy Iverson, who remains both across Ace Rap and Psychology, as the research development officer, manager, if you like. So, yeah, we're we're still an entity, and there's lots of exciting grants that we've kind of been successful with recently, particularly in veterans, construction, and suicide assessment. So these are really important for our progressing the agenda of what we have as our scope.
SPEAKER_04:It's so it's so unique, the educational aspect of it, you know, like because when you think about it, where else in the world can you get postgraduate qualifications in, you know, suicide prevention and suicidology? It's amazing how many people that I meet where I, you know, they see that I have a master's degree in suicidology and they go, is that a thing?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it's still today I encounter, you know, the same, the same comments. Suicidology, what does that mean? And a few years ago in the crisis editorial, there was there was an excellent four or five pages if anyone's interested, editorial around suicidology and being a suicidologist that came out. So, but yeah, it's it's the the post-grad programs that we developed back in 2001 are the only kind of their type in the world in terms of being a full postgraduate qualification in suicidology. Uh over time, of course, there's there's other courses or certificates that have come out in in different specific areas like self-harm and suicide or something like that. But generally, yeah, they're they're definitely something different and unique, and they're not something that becomes a mandated requirement to do a particular job. Unlike, for example, to be a psychologist, you need a psychology degree, et cetera, et cetera.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:There's no degree to be a suicidologist.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. It's an incredible legacy item, really, for Ace Rap, isn't it? Like what a what a great leg legacy to to you know have in the field of mental health and suicide prevention to have those programs in place.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_04:I think very proud. You must be very proud of that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, look, I'm very proud. It's not even like just my, I mean, Diego and I and a team of administration personnel, and we had the support of the then dean and VC to to create, develop, and deliver these programs. I guess the the the proudest thing about the programs for me is the uptake. It's still always going to be a small thing because of the fact that it's not a mandated qualification in any particular occupation, but it's been sustainable. So I mean, that says to me, A, there's a need, and B, the the issue hasn't gone away, of course. We've done as much as we're getting closer and closer, of course, doing as much as we can to prevent suicide, but there's there's still so much more that can be done, clearly. There's always this need to learn more and acquire more. And the one thing I've watched in the, you know, probably the last decade is the cohort of students has moved from being just mature age students to including people who are a few years out of out of high school. And certainly it's still a post-grad degree, so they have to have done an undergrad degree, but there's a a younger age group coming through as well. So, I mean, I think there's definitely continued need for it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, you never know who's going to want to do a master's degree in suicidology, do you? Like even though the odd comedian, well, I reckon I am the only comedian that has actually gone through and done that course.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think you are, Mark.
SPEAKER_01:And it was it's very interesting. What year did you write?
SPEAKER_04:We met we met in 2014. This is one thing that I actually wanted to ask you, right? Because we met in 2014. I started the degree in 2015, the grad school. And, you know, I came into this after having met with Diego with these grand plans of, you know, using human laughter therapy or education in some way to help, you know, prevent suicide. And, you know, I I tell the story about, you know, starting university for the first time in my life at a postgraduate level at the age of 45, you know, after not having finished high school. You know, like I really wasn't the I really wasn't the the typical student that you would have coming into that degree, you know. Like when when Diego first approached you and said, I've just met this guy, right? This comedian guy. What what were your initial thoughts? Can you remember?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I do remember.
SPEAKER_02:We we we had a chat about because we we hadn't yet considered prerequisite or entry criteria of people that did not have some existing qualification reasonably related to the field. I mean, what is that in terms of suicide right? It's a multifaceted, you know, um requiring multidisciplinary responses. So who knows, or who would have even considered, for example, that a comedian could potentially be a preventionist, interventionist. Um so yeah, uh, it was part of the pardon, but it was a bit funny.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Well, because it would have been something like you would have been, you want it, he wants who, what a comedian?
SPEAKER_01:What yeah, yeah, exactly. And I said, what how how's this going to work?
SPEAKER_02:So because we've also seen since 2001 fluctuations internally, and and this is probably the same across most universities, where you revisit the entry criteria prerequisites, dependent on not so much back then the number of students that you that were able to enter, more so now, but uh but yeah, real realistically, were they able to cope academically? Were they able to step into what would be required? Or are we setting not to fail if they have the competencies academically? Um today it's completely different because of course, because we have AI, we have so many more elements, mechanisms to assist and facilitate learning. And of course, there's some negatives to a lot of the improvements as well, but mostly advantages. So when you entered, I do recall we were loosening a little bit the entry criteria to say work-based experience would be able to assist for for the for the graduate certificate. Back then it was called graduate certificate in suicide prevention, now it's graduate certificate in suicidology.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah, well, I've got to tell you, you know, like from a supportive point of view, there was, you know, there is no way that I could have got through that because I, you know, it was hard. I found it quite, you know, confronting and hard because of learning how to learn and the support that I got from not only yourself personally, but all the team at HREP who kind of got behind me and and helped me, you know, get to where I am now, you know, it's I'll never forget it. You know, the laughter clinic is what it is now. All of the support that I receive from yourself and HRAP is contributing to the work that I do now and continue to do.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's very, very nice, Mark, of you to to to convey because I think it works the other way as well, right? Like we've watched your growth, unbelievable growth. And I remember your grades from the beginning.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, we still laugh. We still laugh, you know. Unbelievable. I remember saying to someone, I stupid my first essay, I stupidly thought that they were interested in what I had to say.
SPEAKER_03:I don't think I had references.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, you need to really, you know, I yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's just learning. It's just learning how to write academically and and understanding all that sort of stuff. And and at the time, we didn't have proper tutorial type support set up for you. So, but what what what was we noted, which is part of our really core part of how we we do like to give assessment feedback to our students, is give something that's useful. Don't just tick, cross, tick, cross, lower, but really what has been done well here and what and you took it all on board. And by the end of course, you came out with uh, I recall quite you were able to go into your dissertation. I think it's an amazing journey you've had. It's an excellent example of you know a journey where you think the impossible and then it and you you yield just through your experience um something phenomenal and you have, and you've really made a mark bringing Because I recall at the time the readiness in the sector wasn't fair to have a comedian come and talk about something so serious, right? So since then there's been this escalation and more recently, even a steep escalation in uh people wanting to add some sort of comedy, humor, theatre, whatever to the the more creative side of understanding suicidality, and it's the way in which it's done. So I I don't think people were ready for nor opened probably enough doors for you at the time, and of course you I I think that you've done a tremendous amount of work to get to a point where you know you've enabled it to be a very safe and useful strategy in respect to suicide prevention. So I think it's a phenomenal amount of work that you've done. You're an adjunct with us at AceRap. I think you advocate strongly for suicide prevention on all levels. And one one of the things I think that I admire that I think is rarely seen in in students today, or it's it's probably more difficult to identify, but is the constant, as an alumni, you've constantly remained contact with us and and always seeking out the facts or the safety or the appropriateness of anything and everything that you've encountered that you want to get your teeth into, but you first you so you're doing your due diligence all the time. And in this space, we do have to be cognizant of that. And I think, yeah, it's it's being respectful of the fact that there's a whole amount of impact that can happen through being unsafe in the way that we deliver suicide prevention. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. No, and thank you for that. I I do appreciate it. And that kind of leads into, you know, the next thing that I really wanted to talk about is how suicide prevention has changed over the years in relation to the impact of lived experience and and the voice of lived experience on on suicide prevention protocols and stuff. It's it's really made a big difference, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, absolutely. Like, you know, even if we say that back in the earliest of my Ace Rap days, at least, that we we valued lived experience, etc., and we really did. We had people send us letters, we had people come in to visit Ace Rap, we heard them, we tried to respond to things, ideas, you know, bring them into, you know, setting up community action for prevention and suicide, setting up support groups, opening the clinic because of what patients had told us was feeling marginalized, dehumanized, etc., and requiring a more holistic, person-centred approach. So all of that has been happening, but nowhere near the way in which it it should be happening. So, in other words, not just an adjunct, but lived experience is really about just completely shifting how we understand suicide prevention. That the clinicians and medical people and academics, we're not the experts of a person's experience. But I I think I think the biggest evolutionary change from me, from my perspective, because I'm both a clinician, wearing my clinician hat and my academic research hat and educational hat, but also being a mother and having kids with experiences in this space. So I I think the biggest change has been how we've tried to integrate lived experience, living lived experience with in the prevention field with other experts. So having and not having a lived experience doesn't have to be right or wrong. And so I didn't think this would happen five to ten years ago because there was there was I think it's tricky when you're you're entertaining and bringing in something unknown or unfamiliar. Change is hard for people, especially in a high-level sector. Um so I think that's slowly shifting. That's the biggest change, is not just owning how important invaluable and acknowledging the contributions, the important contributions that we have to learn experience, but but really owning this their their role and space in a sector that still is predominantly led by clinicians or academics, etc. Um, and knowing, however, that both clinical and non-clinical, peer and non-peer, whatever, from a workforce perspective, from a policy perspective, etc., knowing that they all have a place. So no one no one is running if we don't own and collaborate and work together and work in an integrated way, so that continuity of care, continuity of policy, organizational responsiveness, workplace safety, that otherwise that that's never going to happen in an effective way. So that's the most recent shift, which I'm hoping will continue to develop and grow. Because I don't believe the sector should be one or the other.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We all have to work together in respectful and kind of kind ways around the best way forward.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, that that working together, that statement working together is really the the heart and soul of the STARS protocol, really, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:It is, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Let's talk about that because I know that you're incredibly proud of this and and as indeed you should be. For want of a better term, you know, there's a lot of different the term used to be risk assessments for suicide and that sort of stuff, but now we're making it a lot more centered and psychosocial risks and taking a lot of those things into into account. But the the STARS protocol, just talk to our listeners about that, because I know this is a big thing for you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, like, yeah, thanks. Thanks. And and it is, I am really proud of it. I mean, it's still it's still developing, there's still so many lessons to learn around it. But so the systematic tailored assessment for responding to suicidality protocol, so we call it SARS P, it it evolved from white way back in 2015. It was called STARS, but it's it actually it acted in a different academic. It was it it was a kind of screening tool for assessing risk of it.
SPEAKER_04:Screening tool, that's right. Screening tool.
SPEAKER_02:So it was, yeah, and it was very much, but it was so much more than just a screening tool. But yet we so we had the terminology wrong. It was at the time kind of appropriate, not really. And it was still, I guess, using, we got excellent, I got excellent feedback. Uh, just before I commenced formally my PhD from Professor Nav Kapur over in the UK, he was an is an excellent, remains an excellent colleague and friend. And he very much gave really useful feedback around, you know, it can be misleading, the word tool. And so it it's it's sort of it sends a message that we're doing some sort of psychometric administration, um, which we know, as you said before, we don't do risk assessment as we traditionally used to, categorizing risk as low, medium, high, because it's unhelpful. It's predominantly, um and I know we've moved from that. We we all as a sector are well aware of that now, but categorizing people when they're experiencing majority fluid experiences and and also the way in which we we if we concluded that someone was low-mean, those ways are were were very not not objective and and very checklisted approach, yes, no answers. And it doesn't, it never has encapsulated the real experience of an individual in in their little trajectory and how they experience, you know, distress and and suicidal crisis, etc. So Yeah, and so I guess 2015 we made a lot of changes, removed the categorization elements, listened to lived experience. We had people from the Life Promotion Clinic, a whole range of patients at the time who we interviewed informally. We didn't actually publish that data back then, but because though that qualitative information was in fact what informed the 2018, 17 and 18 versions, which which 2018 became the basis of my PhD. And that was really the timing for I guess globally, and I was working very closely with some of the global leaders to really put out on the table psychosocial needs. So it's all about understanding what are the unmet needs of the person, obviously they're their protective factors, but not at the detriment of also understanding their suicidal state. So psychosocial needs-based assessment, which is best practice, internationally renowned to be the NICE guidelines, Ransom Guidelines in Australia, all point to this as the main way of accessing information that's real and personalized to inform safety for the person. However, what they don't probably emphasize as much, but it should be known. So I'm glad I have the opportunity to say this, is that it does also include the suicide inquiry, which is a very requires quite a bit of confidency and skill around trying to understand both past and current suicidal ideation, intent, plans, behaviour, and really getting a unique understanding for that person of their story, their narrative around what escalates and what brings them down, what context, situational, cultural elements are involved in that experience. Uh so that we can build safety with them. They can direct, take the take the reins where where where that that's possible to build the safety plan that also addresses, in the short term, of course, their unmet needs and drivers towards wanting to die.
SPEAKER_04:People can do the STARS training online. And, you know, for anyone listening, who who do you think is suited to doing this training for STARS?
SPEAKER_02:So the STARS protocol, and now we have the STARS Young Persons Protocol. Uh, we're just finishing the development of that through an MRFF grant. So they're both going to be offered digitally, so it's an online as well as hard copy interview schedule for the for the clinician or non-clinician. And they're valuable this year. So yeah, any it doesn't you don't have to be a clinician to use the protocol. So you can be a teacher, a nurse, you can be a caseworker, a youth worker, a clergy, you can be a support worker. So generally, the eligibility to enter the training for STARS has to be someone who's in a position of being supportive of and responsive to someone who experiences suicidal distress. So we generally don't have parents come in, for example, um, and say, look, I wanted to do the stars training. So it's it's more a protocol to to guide your interviewing with the person collaboratively, sitting there with them to identify what next in terms of well, obviously safety, that's the most important thing to bring them to a place of safety right now. But even short term, what can we look at and how to address sort of your unmet needs? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And you know, in recent years we've had an increase in rates of, you know, psychological distress for young people, you know, adolescents and you know, the youth suicide rate. Is that kind of what led to you developing STARS YP, or was it something that you thought, you know, there's certain things in this protocol that we really need to specifically hone into adolescence?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I mean, look, look, the we've always had people since the adult one was developed attending our training that work with child children at adolescents, and they've kind of taken what they wanted from it and as a lot of people do, and they kind of tailor how they use it, which isn't what we'd 100% like to happen, but look, if there's stuff that you can that can be useful, so we didn't actually do research on its feasibility, applicability utility for young people that are fine. So when the opportunity came to apply for money to grant money for the national government, federal government to be able to develop this, absolutely we jumped on it. So we knew the need was there. We had an adult-based uh protocol interview that follows all the best practice guidelines on how do we collaboratively do an empowering, if you like, uh interview process with someone that isn't dehumanizing to explore ways to keep them safe. So as soon as that happened, went for the the grant money and medical research, future fund research. And then we we took together, it was co it was completely co-designed. So we engaged Headspace centres from Victoria and Queensland, Children's Hospital in Queensland, Children's Hospital in Victoria. So we had our two different settings, community and hospital, to to at both staff and clinicians as well as young people and their parents to tell us what adult items when that sit in the stars protocol. There's three main areas, A, B, and C. A is the civil self-inquiry, B is the factors, uh psychosocial factors of of most concern for young people or adults, and then C is the things that keep people living, so the protective factors. And we ask them all their perceptions around what they think needed modification, what's more important, what needs to be removed, added, etc. And you converge all those lived experience, living experience perspectives, what we know as well scientifically, and kind of that triangulation of findings led to what we now have. And it will it will need more refinement over time, of course. But yeah, that was the main reason people are calling out for uh responses to the suicidality, the increased suicidality in young people for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's you know, that call I think comes from there's I don't think the general public really appreciates the complexity of of working in the field of suicide prevention and how complicated it actually is, you know. I remember, you know, one of the first things that we learned going through the the masters was about the the three tiers of of suicide prevention, you know, the universal, the I go here, universal indicated, no, it's universal selective and indicated. Do I got that from?
SPEAKER_01:That's it. That's it for memory.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, so first, okay, so for those listening, because you're gonna do a hell of a lot better job of explaining it than what I am. Okay, so can you can you run through our listeners what those three tiers of suicide prevention look like?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so so for listeners in suicide prevention, we generally all over the world use the public health model, if you like. Public health model just simply means it's not specifically, for example, strictly medical and it's not strictly just social or whatever. It's kind of quite a broad model of responding to anything, disease, whatever. So with respect to suicide, the public health model set suggests that we do a kind of simultaneous addressing of how to reduce at the highest level universally, how do we reduce risk factors and enhance protective factors?
SPEAKER_04:So keeping the population healthy in the first place?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, keep the well population well, prevent uh anyone on a trajectory towards potentially experiencing negative impacts or risk factors, et cetera, but giving them skills, coping mechanisms, etc., to to alleviate that. So everyone, the the whole thing is that universal is about it's the whole population who are at the receipt of public health responses to keep the well population well. And under that, as you said, is the selected responses or interventions. So universal, everyone gets it. Selected is those who there's people in the population who by virtue of the family they've come from or the community they live in, etc., have risk factors. They may not be suicidal at all, but they they may experience certain risk factors such as depression or some type of mental illness, or which I should disclose, not everyone who has a mental illness will go on to die by suicide or be even suicidal. So it's just that we know that there's some population-based risk factors that enhance our vulnerability for or risk, if you like, for suicide. And so those that selective population will be recipients of selected interventions. And so, you know, you might have selected interventions such as domestic violence kind of awareness. Well, that's really a universe one, but domestic violence, addiction programs, you know, and you know, like there's there's many interventions that that allow people who are experiencing some sort of risk factors. Then we have indicated, and indicated is that if you imagine an upside-down triangle, you've got universal selected as you know, reflecting how much of the population they're addressing, and the right bottom of the triangle is indicated. So indicator responses of those who actually are experiencing suicidality, ideation, behavior, etc., and they require access to more, if you like, point-y and inverted commas, but responses. So health services, mental health therapies, whether it be self-help or offered by health professionals, peer workforce, so to keep them safe and and yeah, to intervene and prevent relapse, etc. So it's just, I mean, that's there's a lot more. I mean, anyone can go out, any listeners can Google Public Health Model for Suicide Prevention. Jane Perkins and others have done some excellent um editorials in crisis. They're all free, accessible as full text articles as well. Um so you can have a look at that. It's it's basically the highest level to remember everyone's exposed to those interventions and responses where money goes when you hear about universal prevention. And the selected and indicated are those that come coming down the triangle that provide that extra bit of focused or tailored care for people.
SPEAKER_04:There's a lot of research is in there around supporting universal intervention, you know, early intervention programs and all that sort of stuff. You know, I know one of the big things in Australia was community engagement. You know, we've got like when like you and I have traveled out to Charleville and we've, you know, you go out to these regional centres and they might not have mental health services or access to mental health services. And there was that study that was done, I think it came out the end of 24, where it was at the Mental Health Commission talking about it was either one in four or one in five Australians were not seeking mental health services purely due to cost of living. You know, and so I'm constantly saying to people that community engagement, you know, like if community engagement, keeping the population healthy and engaging with the people around you is so incredibly important.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And you mentioned housing. So at a universal level, government funding, state government funding, initiatives that, for example, make more housing accessible and available, it would be a universal response, universal, you know, response. Having financial strategies uh available for people, having awareness raising elements, you know, stigma reduction campaigns, these are all universal initiatives that everyone's exposed to. But yeah, community engagement, so community absolutely at a universal level, it's it's like provides so many we know from the literature. And we we do tend to have mostly when we look at protective factors, studies that have focused on community when we look at protective factors, so sense of belonging and thinking of what different communities offer, whether it be small church communities or social clubs, whatever, communities of all types can be really protective for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Is there's one thing in particular, like one of those feel, you know, the the universal indicator and selected, is there somewhere in that triad that you think we need to really improve?
SPEAKER_02:At every level we can continue to improve and do better. We need to look at what's not working in the initiatives that we're using to inform how we can improve. And that should be a constant kind of focus. And we can see, for example, in universal responses right now, there's a big move across population, across workplace settings. So we look at the settings element within universal and workplace responses to prevent suicide and prevent even mental health, illness, mental ill health, I should say, uh, has been given a lot of attention. We have the psychosocial credit of conducts coming a few years ago. We want to not just prevent prevent physical injury, but we want to keep people safe and look after their well-being. This whole focus here. So, you know, where I think the focus should just be on what we can continue to do better and in the crisis spaces or in the indicator selected, we need to work better with integrating clinical and non-clinical and understanding where the benefits are and how they most impact positive outcomes for people as well.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about outcomes for people because you know, let's zone in on Australia, you know, at the moment, uh, it's I think it was at the end of September or October, the ABS brought out their the latest suicide uh statistics for our country. And uh so we got the data for 2024, and you know, we're still over that 3,000 individuals mark. I think it was 3,307 uh individuals we actually lost uh to suicide in in 2024, which is now one of the things that I'm talking when I I go out and do these presentations, I'm constantly saying to people, you know, you've got to remember that these are not just numbers. They're not numbers, they're not statistics, these are actual individuals. And and I really would like to have a chat with you about the ripple effect of of these people taking their own lives throughout the community and throughout society in Australia, because uh talk about that number is is as tragic as what it is, and every single one of those deaths is is without a doubt a tragedy. But the the ripple effect through society is you know something that really doesn't get taken into it it doesn't get the recognition and the understanding that I think it deserves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and uh you're you're right. I think we don't really the ripple effect or the tsunami effect, if you like.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well yeah, tsunami effect, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, is is is really difficult to measure. And there have been studies done, of course, and we've we've moved along from saying, you know, six to eight people, you know, in the early, you know, sixties, seventies have been impacted to to now knowing there's a lot, lot more than that.
SPEAKER_04:135. That that that statistic came out. And I just and I remember thinking at the time, that's an incredible number, you know. But when you think about it, you know, friends, next door neighbours, first responders, health professionals, you know, that one event ripples like it is a tsunami.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, quite, quite so. So, yeah, look, definitely there's so many immeasurable and unmeasured impacts. Um, because exposure's one thing, but then impacts is is even more difficult and tricky to to measure. But certainly, yeah, look, we I know that 135 is the kind of most latest referred to level of some sort of what's the word? Exposure. Impact. Exposure is kind of even greater, but impact in a way that's quite significant for every suicide. Like, but of course, I think the the the kind of bigger question or the bigger issue is even with that, right? It enough's enough, like we we know it it's even greater in in many ways as well, and potentially in for different settings or age groups, etc., and cultures, whatever. But it's like, well, so so what what are we doing about that? Talk about not getting attention. I think, yeah, we we have we have the term postvention that refers to everything we do in the aftermath of a death by suicide. How much can you do in what settings and um with whom, and how do you identify them, and etc., are really important questions. I'm I'm not directly in the post-vention space, but certainly I've done still quite a bit in respect of that, particularly at the clinical level. But yeah, I think I think that's post-vention. The one thing that's always stood out for me from the original definition of Schneimann, which was to obviously provide support for people in the aftermath, but also to identify those who potentially could be vulnerable. That's part of what we probably haven't addressed enough because it's very hard to do that. If you do it in the immediate, like in school settings and other things, generally in communities, or now that we have all these online mediums of of governing our lives, it's it's really tricky to do that. So we do have to get better, more innovative, responsive to that, because Schneimann's original kind of definition was about a proactive thing. So it's like how does prevention become post-vention or post-vention become prevention?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so that that's the scenario that that probably needs to be considered a bit more closely when we when we consider the the tsunami effect, if you like. Um how do we better be proactive in our prevention meeting post-vention and vice versa?
SPEAKER_04:Well, that that being proactive is a it's a wonderful segue to one thing that I really wanted to chat with you about is because your work, you know, is clinical as what it is and research-based is what it is. You do a beautiful job of transferring that into real-world practice, and this is seen through the phenomenal job that the organisation Mates in Construction do, you know, throughout Australia. And I know that there's been recent things out where mates is going international, which is so incredibly exciting. So for those people that don't know, you know, talk to us about the wonderful organization that is Mates in Construction.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Mark. Like that's that's honestly no, you're going to go there. But that's, yeah, Mates and Construction is very close to my heart. It is a phenomenal organization. Every organization has bits and pieces they can improve, of course, and and ways to do better. So I really do think mates and construction has shifted globally how we do prevention within industries and workplace for occupations at risk as well. Um, and it's had an overflow effect into other, you know, occupations and workplaces and just generally a lot of the concepts. So I'm fortunate, I'm very proud to be the chair of the Queensland Northern Territory. Board, but I'm also in the national board. And so there's obviously clearly bias when I when I say this, but it was it it originated back in 2006 and was formalized in 2008 as a suicide prevention mental health initiative program, if you like. It was in 2006 that we approached to respond to the Queensland Royal Commission into the commercial construction industry suicides. And that investigation resulted in recommendations for a program of the nature of what is mates, but essentially it was an all of industry created, uh led by Jordan Goldstrap, who's the current CEO of National Mates. But but certainly it was, it took, and this is the innovative nature of it, which is try people are trying to replicate, which is great, but it's it's developed for by the industry. And the industry means every element of the industry, from unions to employers like master builders to super funds, and to to and it's fully lived experience at its core. So as in, the people who built the program from Jorgen to others had their own stories, lived and living experience, together with the research that we know is relevant and tailored for the actual industry itself, the male culture, obviously those females. We have a uh increasing percentage, small, but on females and hopefully higher in the future, but certainly a lot of the original risk factors that we identified in this occupation were associated with being managed. And so, but of course, alcohol, financial elements, it's too big to go into. But the bottom line is what we've we've also, I'm very proud of the fact that, yeah, looking at the protective elements of this industry, what are the great things about the industry? The mateship, the cohesiveness, the ability to be authentic. And this peer-based model has actually really made significant impacts on suicide rates, we believe, to hypothesized. Um and and there's increasing programs that have come out of, you know, what is what are the voices on the ground? What is the industry telling us they need to reduce suicide? So we've got so many now different programs for respond for aftermath of a suicide that's a proactive model. We have supervisor training, apprenticeship programs, because that's where the highest suicide rates occur in the 15 to 24, or if you like, 18 to 30 sort of age group in in our industry. We we have programs for obviously the model itself is multi-level program with the universal selected indicated style kind of initiatives. We have programs for employers, and and obviously the very core of the model, we have the peer matchup delivered through assist, living works, but tailored to to our own workers. So we have the connectors who've done that training. We have a the general awareness training that everyone on site might do.
SPEAKER_04:The toolbox talks. I've I mean so many guys, you know, that are that have been to the toolbox talks and they go, they're they're great. They're great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. So it's massive. It's it's and yeah, I I I think it's really changed the way we have conversations, how we understand that non-clinical responses, peer-based responses, can be some of the best. I think it's really influence us. It doesn't have to be a medicalized understanding or response to have an impact, of course. So I think these are the really important things.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Uh it's it's so it's so incredible and it's so nice to, you know, watch from an outsider's point of view the the progress of mates and you know, and then the mates in mining and any and the the offshoots that come from it. And you know, it's it's very, very like should be very proud to of being associated with that work.
SPEAKER_02:And that's that's all of the states, all the jurisdictions involved, right? All all the COs of the different jurisdictions and their respective boards, and yeah, it's it's and the industry players within that. So they've just you're you're right, it's it's phenomenal work. And and acknowledgement to all the funding also gathered from and it's a diversified funding model, of course, but from government bodies, from big tier one commercial industries, from small industries in the construction industry, they all provide money and super funds, etc., to to keeping us going.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, the the all-important funding dollar, you know, because there's a lot of there are a lot of challenges working in the field of suicide prevention, aren't there? You know, like as a as a workforce, as a sector, there's a lot of challenges. Is there are there ways in that you feel as though we could support the sector better?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Uh yeah, for sure. I mean, we can support the workforce, for example. Whether you're a manager, a policymaker, an employer, a non-government or a government worker, frontline, definitely we can support the workforce more. Um, we can provide opportunities for enhanced competencies, competencies across a range of not just intervening and treating or whatever at a clinical level, but from a peer work level, from as you said before, community engagement level. So we can do a lot more to drive out, and it's really education, knowledge skills aptitude, but in a way that sustains people because it's I I think one thing we miss in our workforce responses and our prevention responses in the sector is that sustaining yourself as an individual or your employees is huge, and it's it's something that's very different to be to sustaining yourself in, for example, a business world, in a business role or a legal role. It's it you're you're constantly at the forefront of what is one of the greatest tragedies of all humankind. And it's very confronting, and it's frequently part of people working in this space have their own good delivering experience. And it doesn't mean, I mean, there's obviously huge advantages to that, but it it means that as human beings, you're working in a field where caring for the care is often ignored. So people who care, whether it be at a clinical, non-clinical, or even policy management level, really to sustain them need some sort of support as well. So I think we don't do that. We need more of that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and and you know, I don't know if people really appreciate the the what's the best way to put this? Like I know there's been numerous times over the years where myself or other people that I know that you it gets found out that you work in the field of suicide prevention or whatever. And then for want of a better term, you might be blindsided in a social situation by someone who finds out that that's what you do, and then all of a sudden you are finding yourself in the depths of an incredibly deep and moving and like you said, often confronting conversation that has just come out of nowhere.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That can so those working in the field would probably very much resonate with that. You know, people ask why, how can you do this work, especially if they're nowhere near the space of mental health and suicide prevention, understandably, unless they've been touched by suicide in their own kind of lives, personal lives. How can you do that? You know, how do you keep going? But it's it's very difficult to grasp an understanding of the impacts that can come um from this work. And as much as there's negative impacts, because I think we're we're just human, I think there's also really positive impacts as well, personal, you know, growth opportunities.
SPEAKER_04:Um look, as much as those conversations have over the years have blindsided me or I've been put in a situation that's made me feel uncomfortable at the moment, at that in moment, because I might not have been prepared for it, I can honestly hand in heart say that afterwards I've come away from that and having felt that it's filled my cup.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Being able to help that person in that moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, and I think a lot of people that work in this in work in this field, there's a lot of cup filling.
SPEAKER_02:I think so too. Yeah, for sure. I think um we probably don't acknowledge the the huge benefits that that come from quite naturally and organically in in the role of being a support person, a carer, or an interventionist, or just being there for someone ad hoc unplanned in no specific role. You know. So and yeah, and and so there's a there's a whole wave of gratitude in this sector, I think, as well, to be acknowledged that we get to be a part of you know, helping someone out or injecting hope, you know, or or tinkering, changing the lens of some people in in a way to help them see things a little bit differently. And they see things either not just hopeless, but in a negative way from a stigma perspective, you know. So I think these these elements are probably overlooked and and should be, you know, celebrated as well. Great elements of working in this space for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, well, look, we're gonna we're gonna this we're on the home stretch, we're gonna start to wind this up because I'm conscious of your time. And uh there's a few things that I want to get to. So, firstly, look, having you know, we just talk about the toll and and the you know, having been working in this sector for over 25 years, how do you how do you do it? You know, how do you how do you maintain hope and resilience and and and keep going?
SPEAKER_02:Ah, look, I I absolutely love my work, my job and the work associated with it, the job generally, it's it's flexible because it's so it it I mean being an academic allows me, and this is what I totally love, to dabble in not just research, but the education and the practice or the service. All of these in the space that I'm working in, civil cybervention, relate to each other. So they they complement and enrich all those different elements. So and and it's it's never boring because it's so complex that I I I I remember coming into the field thinking I know hardly anything, and I feel now I still know hardly anything, like it's so complex, despite I'm continually learning and acquired so much. So that's how I keep going in my actual job. And in terms of the work I do, I keep going, but because I've learned over time to modify, I'm not as heavy in my practice as I was, you know, 10 years ago. So I practice in 1999 and pretty much.
SPEAKER_04:Your psychology practice you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, correct.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So and and I've moved, just watching how I'm looking after myself, move towards still seeing bits and pieces of clinical practice, but but supporting others, so supervision and an educational uh element. So you kind of I guess you've got to follow and listen to yourself in terms of where you're before it happens, there's a proactive response. Before you might be sliding into a space of not feeling capable or doubting yourself, or all these other little bits and pieces that may indicate you're going into a place of not burnout, but just not feeling vicarious trauma? Well, that's certainly a part of this work for for sure. I myself couldn't say that I've experienced this as an actual phenomenon, but certainly bits and pieces of it, absolutely, when you see clients and you you learn to manage that with supervision. And it's it's the most important and most invaluable growth experience both personally and professionally when you get that supervision to prevent any serious implications of it as a phenomenon, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. One question I really I really want to ask you because you and we've seen this so many times. And what advice would you give to someone who because we we see it a lot where uh someone loses a loved one to suicide, whether it be husband, wife, sibling, you know, son, daughter, whoever it is, they lose someone very close to them to suicide, and it drives them to want to be involved in the sector. We see it time and time again, and which is incredibly noble and uh it's driven from the right place of not wanting anyone else to go through what they're going through. But what advice would you give to that person?
SPEAKER_02:Wow, I don't know if I have advice per se, because as you said, highly noble, but I I I for one haven't been in that position, so it's really tricky to make a comment around their experience. But as an observer and working so closely with so many of them, I'm absolutely astounded at the amount of energy, the the dedication, the commitment, the passion, the earnest, and not everyone will want to do that. I know people who've lost their their loved ones to a side that would never even come close to wanting to do that, and yet they can still be passionate and dedicated and whatever, sure in the way in which they have their you know growth and whatever.
SPEAKER_04:Uh but I I was because it can it can really take its toll, you know. Like I and and the passion is is so evident, like if um I don't know we haven't spoken about this, I don't think you and I have spoken about this, but in the last part of last year, I took a couple of friends of mine out to do some laughter clinics regionally, and it was the first time that I actually had a lived experienced speaker as part of the actual presentation itself. Right? So after talking about the numbers, I go, these are real people, these are you know, these are real stories, and then I said, Here's my friend Linda to tell her story, and she tells a story of how her family's lost 11 members to sort of throughout the course of her life. You know, and it's a story that she really wanted to tell and and she'd never told it publicly before and all of this sort of stuff, and it was it it really took it out of her to do it. But the impact that she had in telling that story with the people that were in the room that came up to her afterwards, I just you could see that however stressful it was for her to tell that story publicly, that all went away when these people came up to her and said thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, unbelievable.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and look, for sure, I mean, and there's so many ways in which people who've lost someone to suicide can make a difference, and then and so many ways that they choose to make a difference, uh, and one of them is storytelling. And and there's today, I I'm very thankful for the fact that there's many organizations, including Rose in the Ocean, but others that that help support, educate, and and provide mechanisms to to make it effective, that storytelling process, right? So it so that so that everyone's kept safe, themselves and others. So I would encourage anyone if they want to do that sort of stuff, as of course, to inquire about that.
SPEAKER_04:Uh and but having said that, get training, you know, because there is language, as we know, that is positive training and that's and and training around the right things to say and the wrong things to say and that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_02:For sure, yeah, yeah. And but I mean it sounds like with that particular example that yeah, it sounds like many people experience quite a positive impact. So this is great, there's a great outcome. And and there may be people who never put their hand up or never came forward that either kind of touched in other ways. So you know, it's it's um, yeah. Look, I mean, people are entitled to to grieve in the unique way that they need to grieve. And if it's not grieving, but it's taking action and wanting to to be more active in that respect, then that's great too. Um just just always, I guess one of the things we always try to promote is looking after yourself and others, yeah. You know, in the process.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I love that.
SPEAKER_04:I love that. Look after yourself, look after those around you. That's how it's coming off every episode. So talking about sighting off, we're gonna we let's because honestly, you and I could talk about this for hours. Let's let's wind it up with what we call the feel good five. Okay, so all guests get asked this is the feel good five. So Jacinda Hallgood, your question answers can be as long as short as you like. So feel good five. Number one, what makes you happy?
SPEAKER_02:Oh my goodness, being with with the people I love, my kids, you know, people close to me, going out, having fun. It's it's really humans, other humans.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, I love it, I love it, I love it. What are you grateful for today?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I'm grateful for my the opportunity to be a mother, yeah, and have two beautiful children in in a world that's so busy and and hurried, and it's there's so much stuff going on that that I'm able to still be that mother and have these beautiful kids around me and my family. Yeah, I'm most grateful for that.
SPEAKER_04:Wonderful. Question number three what are you looking forward to? What's coming up?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I've got a couple of really great things coming up. So a couple of concerts, a bit of comedy with Carl Barron. Nice, short short-term, you know, events coming up. Lithuania, which is the ESSSB, European Symposium for Suicide and Self-Harm Behaviour, coming up in August. Yeah. Um, and 2026 is meant to be a great year. So I'm hoping that there's even more events that that I can focus on, but but also just engaging in all the the exciting research that we've got coming on at the moment. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Nice one. And so question number four is what's your me time when you want to switch off from the world and recalibrate? What do you do?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I like to listen to music. Yeah, take a dip in the pool when it's summer. I like to exercise.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, I I love exercise, even if I'm feeling like heavy and tired and distressed, love it. That becomes my me time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, always.
SPEAKER_02:Which is obviously with others, but it's still it's my reward for self. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, nice. And uh last question on the feel good five is what's made you laugh recently?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, interesting. Apart from you, uh yeah. I saw a recent, actually it was this morning, the most recent, was a real event in our family correspondence group. A real about what it's like to be a parent when you just put your legs up and have your coffee, and then all of a sudden in comes child one, child two, child three, child, and it continues. And it was hilarious. It was so close to real. You just gotta sit back and laugh.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, nice. Yeah, those real kids will do that. Kids will do that. Well, look, I've got a few things that I want to say as we wind up because I'm so incredibly grateful for our friendship and everything that you have given me and supported me over the years. Like I said, the Laughter Clinic is what it is today. Big part of that has been your support, and you know, you believed in me when I might not have believed in myself, and you challenged me and and supported me. And there's so many ways that I am grateful for for everything that you've given me over the years. I really am. And and the work that I'm doing, you know, is really important to me, and and I know that in some way I'm making a difference, you know. It's it's like just like the work that you, you know, you will never know just into how many lives that you have saved. You know, and for you, you'll never know. You just you just keep going, you know, and it's an it's an absolute credit to to you and who you are as a human and everything that you bring to the world, and and for those people that are affected by suicide or have lost someone to suicide, I just want you to know that there are so many more people like Jacinta out there that are just dedicated, that dedicate their lives to this, you know, because it is one of those things that once you start working in this sector, you don't want to stop. You know, like I can picture myself doing what it is I do now for as long as I'm drawing breath.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You know, so thank you. I will make sure that there are links in the show notes to Ace Rap and STARS if there are any people listening that would like to investigate the STARS protocol and and share this episode with someone because it's such an important conversation not to keep to yourself, you know. Like if if this has struck a chord with you in some way, you know, share it with your network, share it with someone who you feel as they may benefit, and you know, leave a comment because that's how that's how we get the word out there and and help people as as many people as what we can, and that's that's the whole idea of this. So uh Jacinda Hallgood, thank you so much for your time and everything that you do.
unknown:Thank you.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you so much. And for our listeners, thank you. Thank you for listening. And as always, my friends, please look after yourself and look after those around you. I'll talk to you next time. Cheers.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for listening. The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended, nor should it ever replace advice received from a physician or mental health professional. Want more info? Visit theelumfterclinic.com.au. If you enjoyed the episode, please share and subscribe. Thanks again for listening to the Laughter Clinic Podcast with your host, Mark McConville.