Life Skills Masterclass Part 3: Communication, Relationships, and Empathy

In the 3rd instalment of the Life Skills Masterclass series Mark and Jodi break down how clear language, presence, and empathy turn daily talk into deeper levels of connection. We share simple moves like I statements, active listening, and repair attempts, then zoom out to relationship audits, love languages, and finding your tribe beyond home and work.

In this episode: 
• Using I statements to reduce defensiveness 
• Choosing calls over text for tough topics 
• Active listening and phone boundaries 
• Assertive communication over passive or aggressive styles 
• Quality over quantity in friendships 
• Relationship audit questions that guide investment 
• Recognising bids for connection and repair attempts 
• Love languages as practical communication habits 
• Empathy vs sympathy with helpful phrases 
• Self-empathy to cut shame and support help-seeking 
• Simple check-ins that fight loneliness and build belonging

Challenge: Five peeps in your contact list. Go and do it. "Haven't spoken to you in a while, appreciate you. So glad you're in my life. Look forward to seeing you next time."

Based on the World Health Organization's Life Skills framework.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends, leave a comment, like, subscribe, all of that sort of stuff.

For more Info on Jodi Allen:
https://www.jodiallennutrition.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodi-allen-944a76138/
https://www.youtube.com/@jodiallenyoga
Insta: @jodiallennutrition

For more info on The Gottman Realtionship Tools:
https://www.gottman.com/about/the-gottman-method/

For more info on the Love Languages Quiz:
https://5lovelanguages.com/quizzes/love-language

Next episode: The final instalment — Managing Emotions, Mindfulness, and Lifestyle Medicine.

Website: www.thelaughterclinic.com.au

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@thelaughterclinicAus

"If you or someone you know needs support, please contact one of these Australian mental health services. In an emergency, always call 000."

Lifeline Australia
Phone: 13 11 14 (24/7)
Web: lifeline.org.au

Suicide Call Back Service
Phone: 1300 659 467 (24/7)
Web: suicidecallbackservice.org.au

Beyond Blue
Phone: 1300 22 4636 (24/7)
Web: beyondblue.org.au

Kids Helpline (for people aged 5-25)
Phone: 1800 55 1800 (24/7)
Web: kidshelpline.com.au

MensLine Australia
Phone: 1300 78 99 78 (24/7)
Web: mensline.org.au

SANE Australia (complex mental health issues)
Phone: 1800 18 7263
Web: sane.org

QLife (LGBTIQ+ support)
Phone: 1800 184 527 
Web: qlife.org.au

Open Arms (Veterans & Families Counselling)
Phone: 1800 011 046 (24/7)
Web: openarms.gov.au

1800RESPECT (sexual assault, domestic violence)
Phone: 1800 737 732 (24/7)
Web: 1800respect.org.au

Headspace (youth mental health, ages 12-25)
Phone: 1800 650 890 
Web: headspace.org.au

13YARN (Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander crisis support)
Phone: 13 92 76 (13YARN) (24/7)
Web: 13yarn.org.au

Music by Hayden Smith
https://www.haydensmith.com

Transcript

Welcome And Series Recap

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Lumpter Clinic Podcast with comedians and psychologists Matt McComp. Bringing you practical, evidence-based healthcare strategies, the latest research in mental health, along with conversations that inspire, educate, and entertain. This is the Lampter Clinic Podcast with your host, Matt McCumpy.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Welcome back to the Laughter Clinic Podcast, my friends. It is Life Skills Masterclass, the third episode in the series, and we welcome back our wonderful co-host, Jodie Allen. Good to see you, Jody. How you going?

SPEAKER_03 0:48

I'm great. It's great to be back here.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

So much appreciate your time in uh being part of the series and and co-hosting this with me. I really appreciate it. It's been good so far.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Yeah, I've had fun.

Today’s Focus: Communication And Relationships

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, it's good. So the last couple of weeks we have covered our uh we started with the the foundation life skills, didn't we? In episode one, we covered self-awareness coping with stress and problem solving. Episode two, last week we covered thinking. Critical thinking, creative thinking, and decision making. And in this week's episode, it's all about relationships. It's all about communicating effectively, interpersonal relationships, and empathy. How we connect, how we communicate and how we connect with others and how important it is because relationships are everything, aren't they?

SPEAKER_03 1:42

They sure are. They're essential to having a healthy quality of life, aren't they? And it's how, you know, how we express ourselves, how we relate and empathize with others. And, you know, how we communicate is a really important vehicle in how we carry ourselves in our relationships.

Performing, Presence And The Illusion Of Freshness

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yeah, there's all different types of communicating, isn't there? You know, like we when you think about communicating, it's like most of the time it you you think about talking, but there's so much communication is non-verbal as well. You know, like we're in the we're in the business of communicating, really, because you know, you're a presenter, you you know Truman informed facilitator of the the program that we've spoken about that we both work on for the four Ozzy Heroes and your work in nutrition, your nutrition clients and your yoga clients, you know, like it's yeah, we are in the communication business when you think about it, aside from what it is that we do. We've got to get our we've got to communicate our ideas across appropriately. Yeah. And succinctly. And I'm probably doing a shit job of communicating this at the moment, but just keep throwing your jokes in there. Yeah, we're we're doing all right. Well, that's the thing, you know. As a comedian, I am a I gotta communicate jokes, you know? And yeah, and one of the things that really spins me out is one of the questions I get asked the most is how do you remember it all?

SPEAKER_04 3:13

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

When you're on stage for an hour, how do you remember all that stuff? And and my standard response is remembering it is the easy bit. Right? Because at the end of the day, it's a script, it's a story that I've lived, it's something that I've done that I and the hard part is saying the same story for the thousandth time and I still believe it's funny.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I still have to believe it's funny. Because if I don't believe it's funny, the audience isn't gonna buy it. Yeah. And that's like like I've been listening to some podcasts recently where they've been interviewing actors, you know, and I started out studying acting and stuff, and and the communication like it comes from inside, you know, like doesn't it? Like it's really how you want to communicate with someone is so much more than just the words that are coming out of your mouth.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

Yeah, and I've seen you in your laughter clinic and delivering, you know, the the same content, but it's it's like hearing it for the first time. And I laugh like I haven't heard it before because your delivery is always, you know, yeah, it's it's good fun and you're you're in it. And you're it's the illusion.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

It's the illusion. It's the illusion, man. It's the vibe that I create.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

It's the vibe.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

We love the vibe.

Why Texting Fails For Tough Conversations

SPEAKER_01 4:36

We love the vibe, that's right. So, you know, and no matter who your relationship, whether you it's a relationship like an intimate relationship, a work relationship, you know, with your friends, communication, you know, a lot of the time when relationships break down, it's there's some type of communication that's been at fault some a lot of the time, isn't it? You know, if someone hasn't communicated properly what they wanted to get across, or you know, people take things the wrong way. That's why one of the big things I say to my mates is you can never have a like not an argument, but like if you're trying to nut something out with your your partner or s or even a friend or anyone, you can't do it via text.

SPEAKER_04 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

You know, you can't do it via text message or messenger because there's no tone.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah, there's so much missed in that kind of communication, isn't there? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

You know, pick up the phone and talk to people.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

It's also, though, one of the most challenging things in life is having uncomfortable conversations, isn't it? You know, we're often naturally avoidant to that.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, well, yeah, that's it. We are avoidant of it.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

But good communication, we can learn it.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

We can learn it, yes, yes, we can. We can.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

We can get better.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

We can get better, you know. That's one of the big things they taught us at the acting school was, you know, different ways of communicating when sometimes you had to communicate just with your body.

Listening Versus Waiting To Talk

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Without without when you were the plant, then Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Have I told you the story? I had to I had to be uh so I was studying method acting, right? So I had to be, I had to portray physically a seed, right, swelling up, taking in moisture, splitting open, rising through the soil, finding sunlight for the first time, and turning into a tree and then photosynthesizing carbon dioxide into oxygen.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

That just gives me the best imagery of you a little seedling into a plant. I was amazing at it.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah. Yeah. Oh don't anyway, move right along. That's right, and it was communicating, and I was communicating and then and then It would have been so challenging though to do it without words. The most challenging one was I had to be molten metal. I had to be molten metal being poured out of a out of a uh vat into a mould, and I had to form the shape of like an anchor.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Jeez.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, it was, you know, and I gotta tell you, it was pretty funny when they said, you know, we want you to analyse the psychological characteristics of a plant, and I struggled, I gotta tell you, till I went home and smoked a couple, and then I was the plant. It was great.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

You were one with nature.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I was one. So uh we digressed. Yeah, we digress. Yeah. Don't do drugs, kids. Okay, so uh where are we going? We're uh we're talking about communication, so because we we assume other people understand what we're talking about, you know?

I Statements That De-escalate Conflict

SPEAKER_03 7:54

And yeah, that's often the problem though, isn't it? Is we can say things like, well, I shouldn't have to ask for that, or I shouldn't have to pardon me. We shouldn't I shouldn't have to point that out or I shouldn't have to say that. But really effective communication is being really clear about what we what we mean and and how we speak up and and take action for ourselves and assert ourselves and you know how we also listen. So how how we it's that bi-directional pathway, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Well, but how's the old what's the old saying? You've got two ears and one mouth. You know, so use use these more than use.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Listen twice as much as you speak.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, yeah, which was a saying that was never intended for people with ADHD. Because I gotta tell you, you know, like is someone who has been, you know, dealing with that for the last 15 years, that's one of the big things that I think anybody that's got ADHD that's maybe listening will be able to relate to is, you know, because there's different symptoms, you know, that you talk about the impulsivity and this and that, but yeah, the and I and I don't think it's it's wholly and solely just people with ADHD, it's a trait just for people with ADHD. I think a lot of people in general society, when they're communicating with people, will be, you know, not so much listening to what's being said, but just itching to get their their next thing in.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

And I think uh it's also you look at what was your family dynamics of how you communicated when you're you know growing up. Like for me, we're a very noisy vocal family. We would basically talk over each other, and if you didn't get out what you needed to say, you just were steamrolled by another family member, and you, you know, someone has to back down. And like when I talk with my dad, neither of us is backing down, so we're both just talking at the same time, but we're like it's it's but I it's been the way, you know, our dynamic since I was little. And it wasn't until when I was in the RAF and an officer pulled me up and said, Can you stop speaking over me while I'm speaking? And I was like, Oh, ooh, ooh. But I was actually, yeah, I had to take a moment, yeah, no one had ever pulled me up on it before. But it was something that I was doing all the time because it was just learned behaviour. And in my family, it was acceptable to talk over each other. But were you ever really heard? Yeah, not really, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah, it's like you said, it can be a learned skill, you know. Like I think I know I know me personally, since I started doing this podcast, it's it's made me a better listener.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, because you're making a a concerted effort.

Emotions, Brains And Flipping Your Lid

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Got a lot of the that going on.

unknown 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

I don't know. Well for those of you that are listening, and that's probably gonna make absolutely zero sense what I'm talking about. But I'm focused is where I'm going with that. I'm focused. Yeah. Because you know, a lot of the time when you're waiting to to have your say, it's it it's emotions, you know, like there's emotion driving what, you know, I'm frustrated, I want to get my point across, or I'm excited, I want to tell them about this, or I'm angry, you gotta hear me.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

And yeah, you know. I do it when I'm excited. I've I've got to, you know, take take some deep breaths because I'm like, oh, this, I'm really excited about this conversation. I wanna um, but I've got to, you know, take take a moment and just wait, hold it, hold it.

SPEAKER_05 11:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Yeah, it's um yeah, as we got hit, emotions can hijack communication if we're you know speaking reactively and in in an emotional way, then often we are not heard. And you know, that really leads us into our first practical strategy.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Love it. Excellent. Hit us with it.

Lead With Kindness And Ask To Listen Or Fix

SPEAKER_03 12:23

It's probably not the first time many listeners have heard it as using I statements when we're communicating. Because often if we're in a discussion or an argument or a disagreement, it's you know, using the the the you, you've done this or you've made me feel this way, and you, the person on the receiving end of that, can often feel attacked and just go straight into defensive mode without really listening because they've gone straight on to, well, I've got to defend myself here because I feel like I'm being attacked, which then destroys the communication and the message that you're trying to relay. And it could be, you know, with the I statements, it's, you know, I feel so you know, I feel upset when, you know, pointing out something that, you know, the other person might be doing in their behavior because this is the impact that it's having on me, and this is what I need from you. So you're using the I statements instead of the what can be perceived as the attacking you statements, and then that can uh free up the communication to be less emotive.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

So as an example, I reck uh so an example could be you never listen to me. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that have heard that. And but the thing is that you're starting with the U, you know, so which is a blame bang, it's an aggressive start to that sentence as opposed to I feel unheard when I'm interrupted because it makes me think my opinion doesn't matter. I need you to let me finish my thoughts. You know.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

So it's it's uh relaying how you feel by with the behaviour of the other person and what you need. So there's you know, it's a a helpful statement, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah. Or you're always late, you know, or you're never on time, or you you know, anything anything that starts with you or your is bang straight away, it's aggressive.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

Yeah, and uh the words like always, never, yeah, because they're that's usually not an accurate statement because are they really always late? Yeah. Are they really give me a percentage? How many what percentage of the time am I late? Yeah, so you're using you know ix extremes, which is which is not helpful.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, no, extremes are no good. Extremes are no good. Yeah, it's really that's and that's one of the things that, like we've said numerous times so far in the episodes that we've been doing on the life skills is how they all interact with each other.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

You know, like we will be talking about emotions a bit later on in the final episode, but uh how emotions affect communication, you know, and stress, you know, we spoke about stress, how that affects how you you feel emotionally, which is going to have an impact on your communication, or if you haven't, you know, actually thought something out and made it, you know, you you might fly off the handle because you haven't thought something out and made a thoughtful decision on something, and you know, so it just every single one of these I find I see ways that they all interact with each other, which is so cool, you know.

Active Listening And The Phone Problem

SPEAKER_03 15:59

And having that awareness, which was our first topic of the series is having the awareness and it's really, you know. I'm getting wound up here. Yeah, and you know, tuning in, okay, my heart's racing, or I'm feeling tense, or I'm feeling angry, taking a pause.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

And then we in that in that first episode we covered problem solving, and it's like, you know, how can I possibly expect to have this problem solved if I haven't critically thought about the problem, made a decision about the problem, and effectively communicated what I need in relation to getting this problem solved if it in if it is a relationship problem. You know?

SPEAKER_03 16:41

And and in the case of like say we've you know, if you're we call it flip flipping, you flipped your lid, you know, that region of the limbic system of your brain, like the the lizard brain, it's also known as that very, you know, I feel threatened here, or you know, I am feeling angry, it takes over. And the pre-frontal cortex, which is, you know, where our our thinking part of our brain now, you know, helping to regulate and have have a thoughtful uh response, it goes offline. So we can think and say things that we don't mean and cause hurt and harm when we're in a really agitated state. It's yeah, it can be really disruptive. Yeah you know, we want to make sure that we're when we're communicating, if we're attacking or blaming, you know, it's not going to open up a calm two-way conversation. It can, you know, really shut that down. And we want to focus on, you know, what our feelings are and what our needs are, and being able to, you know, communicate those safely.

Assertive Not Aggressive Or Passive

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Yeah, it's amazing that a few weeks ago I had on the podcast a guy called John Godwin who runs a organization Inspiring Brighter Futures, and they have mentors that go into high schools to and like these are volunteer people. Yeah. Right, members of the public that go and volunteer as mentors for disadvantaged youth and that sort of stuff. And like, you know, there's an adolescent, there's a there's a cohort that's communication's gonna be like every every parent of teenagers that I know that talks about trying to communicate with their teenage kids, like, how was good a day? Grunt, what did you do? Nothing, I don't know, right? And and I remember saying to him, how it can be really hard, must be really hard trying to communicate sometimes to these kids that have you know sick of pro sick of people telling them what to do, or that I don't want to do another program, I don't want to talk to another counsellor, all this sort of stuff. And I will never forget it, he said, you will be amazed what you can achieve when you come from a position of love.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 19:14

You know, like when you're communicating, is this am I communicating is the is the communication that I'm trying to get across here, is it coming from a place of kindness and love, you know, as opposed to come coming from a place of anger and you know, but it's it's complicated because we all get angry, we all get the shits, and you know, I think often too, as you know, as a parent, a friend, a colleague, we can immediately go into I see this, you know, in the in the first responder in that community a lot is that you know it's wired into us, and if you're an empath as well, is to fix, is to I've got to go in and I've got to, you know, I've got to fix it. And one of the biggest things I learned with my kids is to say, if they've had a you know rough day or rough time at school or uni, you know, do you do you want me to just listen or do you want me to help you fix it or work this out? And 90% of the time they'll say, Mum, I just want you to listen. And then they'll pull me up if I start going into, well, if you thought about what about and they go, Mum. You're supposed to be listening. You said you they do. They'll put me, Mom, you said you were just gonna listen. Right, you are. Yeah, gotta put my, you know, sit on my hands sometimes because we want to swoop in and fix and solve things for people. But one thing we've learned, uni doing the masters, is that if you are trying to fix and solve other people's problems, you're actually removing the the capacity for them to solve that problem themselves. And when they work that out themselves, they're you know, really proud of uh I could actually fix that and solve that. I hadn't thought about that. You could give them some, you know, thoughts about it, but yeah, you're taking away their autonomy, and I was like, ooh, yeah, I never thought about that. I just thought, well, I've got some answers, here you go.

SPEAKER_05 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

Well, you know, we we kind of try and race in there sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah, and because you you're you're a caring mum, right? Yeah, you know, you that's coming from a place of wanting to, you know, look after your kids and you want what's best for them and you know, share your wisdom with them. But it's like uh yeah, the listen a few things I want to unpack there. The listening and not only not only listening, and they they talk about this a lot in in suicide prevention and that sort of stuff, is l not listening without judgment.

SPEAKER_04 21:47

Oh that's yeah that's a big one. That's the big one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

You know, like listening without judgment. Just unload, I'm I'm not sitting here to pass judgment on you and Letting people sometimes just verbalising whatever it is that's given them the ache is is a big thing. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

It can be a big weight off their shoulders.

From Communication To Relationship Building

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, you know. And that's yeah, that's why you know what was I gonna say the uh we got you saying about taking away their autonomy to do to to get better at fixing the problem.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I know that I wish I could remember where I heard this say too it uh could this be a bumper sticker? Maybe. We've got a collection now. Yeah, we do have a collection. It was something along the lines of if if you wanna if you want to be good at doing hard things, you've got to do lots of hard things or something along those lines. Like you're never gonna you're never gonna get good at having difficult conversations if you shield yourself from difficult conversations all the time.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah. You know and and when you do have them, you're really proud of yourself and you alleviate a lot of stress when you have them.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

So let's talk about listening because it's you know, that's a big thing for it's been a challenge for me over the years, active actively listening. Me too. So the big one, you know, waiting to talk is is is not really listening, you know. It's it's a different you're hearing the words, but you're not actually engaged in listening to the to the content. So active listening is the ability to have an understanding of what the other person is, you know, saying to you and and taking it in.

SPEAKER_04 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

You know. So I've got written here phone matters.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

So talk to me about because when I think of phone matters, in this day and age, I think of people that I know that I just go, Oh man, can we just have a conversation without you having your phone out? You know?

Quality Over Quantity In Friendships

SPEAKER_03 23:57

Yeah, well. Because it's it sends a weird message when you I think the pre the well, the presence of a phone is just i it's a barrier, and when someone's talking to you, even if it's like in your hand or on the table, it's well, they could be distracted by that any moment. Like I was saying to you earlier when my daughter wanted to speak to me today, I was on my phone and I had I took it out of my hand, I put it face down on my desk and I swung around on my chair and I faced her directly and I said, hit me with it. So, because I was in the middle of texting someone, and I'm like, nope, because when she started talking to me, I still had it in my hand. I'm like, no, no, no. I had to consciously put it down, be be present. And I think, yeah, it does take a lot of presence uh away from us. I've you know, I find it really hard to I'm a constant phone checker. Have I got a message, have I got a an email, so I've had to set some rules around it. You know, if someone's speaking to me, it's away, it's down, it's uh and not picking it up first thing in the morning, you know, have the delay of a few minutes or or even longer.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

A few minutes. So you're lie in bed, right? Right, my two minutes are on. And then you go, okay, so uh the snooze, I've I've I'm on one snooze, so that's nine minutes I'm allowed to check the phone.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Yeah. You know, we've got two baby steps around these things.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Yeah, well. Oh look, I you know, this mate of mine has got this thing where he I don't know if he still implements it because it sounded a bit drastic, but he was saying that when people come to his house to visit him, he makes everyone put their phones in a in a bowl at the front door. And so yeah, so like if you hear we're gonna hang out, you know, I don't want any phones on the table, I don't want you checking them, you know, like it's actually a great tactic.

Mentors, Leaders And Workplace Bonds

SPEAKER_03 26:02

We do it on the program that we have a basket and a little please place your phones here. And they get so you at first they're a bit, ooh, and then they just get used to it. There's the basket, there's your phone. And it's funny, within days you s kind of see the phone just in there all day. Like they just kind of start separating themselves from it and go, Wow, didn't realise how much I checked my phone until it was, you know, not in my hand or in my pocket. It's hard. It's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

It's so hard because like it's you know, like a comedian mate of mine, Stab Davidson, said when we were talking about this on the podcast, he said, you know, if if we're in a conversation and you want me to be talking to you and not scrolling on my phone, you've got a lot to compete with. Because this is fucking awesome, you know. Like I've got every comedian on the planet in the palm of my hand, and I've got videos and kids falling off the piano and people trying to reverse cars down boat ramps, and you know, he said it's just awesome. Yeah. And that's the trap. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 27:09

You know, because we all get sucked into it, you know. It's funny they call it social media, but it's so it's so anti-social. Yeah. Oh, really.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

I get it started on that. That's a whole other episode.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

So okay, so we're uh where we're talking about okay, so putting a phone away is a big communication, big that's it that that tells the the other person that you're with. Like if you're out to, you know, coffee with a friend of yours or whatever, you know, and this is nothing new. I know Simon Sinek very famously talks about this, you know, world leader when it comes to communication and and leadership and that sort of stuff. And and you know, he talks about the fact that what what message is it saying to the other person sitting across the table from you if you can't sit there and put your phone away?

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

You know, even if it's face up, face down, if it's still on the table, you know.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Which is pretty interesting, you know, because I've been trying to be conscious of putting it away. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yeah, it is a it's a it takes conscious effort because they're such an extension of who we are now.

Belonging, Sport And Finding Your Tribe

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Well, we want to be able to we're talking about communication. We want to be able to communicate to the other person that we're sitting across the table from that this is this is important. Whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever time we're sharing, I'm giving it a hundred percent, and my com that communication is between us and you've got my undivided attention. Undivided attention and whatever other communication that's involved, I can deal with that later on. So yeah. Yeah. So and talk to us about assertiveness, Jody. The assertiveness spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Well, yes. Look, this is something as a people pleaser in my youth and always and uh being quite shy, I found assertive communication quite challenging. I know it's very common, and it's when we're talking about being assertive, it's not the same as aggressive.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

So it's you know, really expressing what our needs are without ambiguity. I can't even say that word. Ambiguity. Ambiguity, you know, and it's so what does that look like when we're, oh you know, what it what you know, what do you want for dinner? Oh, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Well, that's that's the the three styles, isn't it? Of community the passive, aggressive, and the serving.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Sorry, passive, yeah. Passive is uh whatever you want. And avoiding Yeah, and the saying we were talking about this earlier, you know, happy, happy wife, happy life kind of thing. It's that very passive, you know, oh whatever you decide. And what that, you know, I did this a lot in my 20s. What that does, the passive communication is, you know, you don't want to rock the boat, you're people pleasing, whatever the other person wants, what does it end up? You end up not having your needs met.

SPEAKER_05 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

And when you're not having your me needs met, that often builds resentment. So you often become unhappy and resentful, often of the other person that you're being, you know, passively communicating with. But unbeknownst to that other person, you know, they don't know what they don't know. They don't know what you're not telling them. And it can be really frustrating to be on the receiving end of, oh, whatever. I don't mind, whatever you want. And that's not helpful, then it it always then it places the decision making on the other person all the time. And that can be really tiring. And you know, aggressive can be very dominating, attacking. And aggressive communication doesn't always have to be yelling. You know, it can be a person can still aggressively communicate you but appear in a you know See, I think the silent treatment is aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Like you know, like is is if you're in a relationship and you and you get the silent treatment, to me that's an aggressive tactic. And even though it involves not saying anything, it's a form of punishment.

Transition, Identity And Keeping Connections

SPEAKER_03 31:38

It's it's the silent treatment is one of the death knells of uh any relationship. Because it really leaves the other person that's being is on the other end of the silent treatment, you know, they don't know where to place themselves, you know, they're walking on eggshells, or they might be trying to repair, make bids for connection, and they're being rebuffed. It's really, yeah, not an effective way to communicate at all. And it's a di the, you know, giving someone the silent treatment is also different to saying, hey, I'm feeling really emotional or I can't have this conversation right now. I need to go away and have a moment and get my thoughts together, but I and then I want to come back and continue this conversation when I feel calm and in a good place to do so.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, so you're you're communicating the fact that the fact that I want to I want us to be able to communicate about this properly, but it's not gonna happen right now. So can we come back and address it when we can communicate about it?

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah, so you can still take some time out. That and that is very different to this giving the silent treatment is well, I'm gonna pun you've done something and that displeases me, and I'm gonna punish you by not talking to you. And you know, our goal is to communicate assertively in a way that our needs being expressed and met, and it you know, can start with things like I need, I feel, I would like. So again, what are we using? The eye words, the eye statements, and that equals healthy relationships because we're not leaving the other person trying to second people, are not mind readers, and we often make assumptions and have you know our own perceptions in you know what might be happening in any kind of relationship. So if we're very clear in how in expressing ourselves, then it makes our lives a lot easier. And I wish I wish I had known about this in my twenties. Yeah, right. I think my life would have been uh a lot easier, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

I should just say, just I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna sideways go here.

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

For those that are listening, when this episode or the last couple of episodes and you hear these occasional noises in the background, I should just let you know that our usual podcast studio is is not available, and so we're in the bowels of the sit-down comedy club at the moment in Brisbane, and it is a massive construction site around us. So we've come in to we've come in to record the episodes after the workers have gone, but we're you know, we're still underneath a fully working and functioning pub. So so if you're hearing some noises, that's what's going on in the background. Uh you know, so we do our best to to to take it out. We'll just soldier on. We're just soldiering and on.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

There's an annoying smoke detector that likes to let us know it's here. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

So yeah, sometimes when you know, if you want to communicate effectively, you've got to know when to pause. You know, just gotta know when to when to stop and go, look, you know, this is an important conversation that we need to have, or or whatever. And, you know, maybe we need to readdress it when we calm calm down or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

And letting the other person know that I do, you know, don't avoid it. I'm not dismissing this, yeah. Yeah, I'm not dismissing you.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

It's because I respect you that I want us to be able to sort this out, and we need to be able to sort it out calmly.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

The transition, my friends, is communication is the tool, but relationships are what we are building. When we're communicating effectively, we're building relationships. And so that's our life skill number two for this episode. First one was effective communication. Now we're going to talk about interpersonal relationships because they're everything, aren't they, Jody?

SPEAKER_03 35:58

They are. And it's, you know, we're not just talking about intimate relationships, we're talking about our friends, work colleagues, our neighbors, our peers, our kids, family, extended family. We know, you know, research has a wide body of research that shows that uh healthy relationships are fundamental to well-being and our quality of life. And we also know that the quality matters over quantity. And you'll, you know, I think you get to our age, and the more conversations you have around friendships, well, I know this is um with my friends, is that you really value your friendships and the quality over quantity. I think when I was younger, I valued, you know, quantity and I wanted to be everyone's friend. I wanted everyone to like me and be accepted, which is a very normal part of adolescence and and growing up. We want to be accepted and have a wide friend base and be accepted by our peers. And then, you know, going through the lifespan, as we get older, we tend to value the quality of our relationships, and often our friendship circle gets smaller. But you think about who's in that circle and you start to realize I don't need a lot of friends. I I just need the I need quality friends that they've got my back and I've got theirs.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

And you know, you're really friends on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Are they aren't they your friends? It's it's the it's the people on your bus, uh, as um we like to say in in mental health, is who's on your bus, you know, and you're the you're the driver of your life, and you're you get to decide who is in your inner circle and what are they, you know, what are you contributing to the friendship and and what are you receiving? And we can absolutely improve our relationships, be it intimate or friends or our work colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yeah, which uh uh uh goes, you know, reiterates the life skill that we just talked about, communication, you know, communicating is a is a great way to improve our quality of relationships, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

A lot of people that talk about relationships would be familiar or have d delved into relationship research at some point would be familiar with the the Gottman's the work of the power couple. Yeah. I can never remember her name. John and do you remember her? Is it I think Jul Julie? Oh, I can't remember. Well, we'll just say the Gottman Research. They were uh very powerful stuff. That you know, a lot of psychologists, a lot of psychiatrists refer to the Gottman Institute, um Gottman, you know, formulas when they're doing they've got a great website. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, lots of we'll put the link, we'll put all the link up there.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Lots of research, education.

The Five Love Languages Explained

SPEAKER_01 39:16

And so fundamentally around their research, talk they talk about healthy relationships, have trust and safety, which is a given. That's we really got to start there. Mutual respect, which is great, effective conflict resolution, once again, that's gonna come down to effective communication. Yeah, emotional connection, which is you know, that emotion something that we'll talk about when we get to the study about emotions and and empathy, and and sharing values and goals. You know, this is one of the things that recently I was talking to uh had uh on Stephen Woods from Employee Wellness Australia, and he was talking about the difference between a leader and a manager. Because it's not the same thing, yeah, you know, like a l a manager manages you know resources and people and and time frames and calendars and all this sort of stuff, whereas a leader inspires, you know.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

Yeah, if they're a good if they're a good leader.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

If they're a good leader, you know, come with me on this journey, you know.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

And so that's which is a totally different relationship.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

You know, exactly. And I think one of the one of the cool things is I I like the I was saying before about having uh John Godwin on that as the mentors that go into the schools, you know. I think I think there's a lot to be said for a mentor relationship, and I know you're a fan.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

You know, like I've got an ADHD coach who's kind of a bit of a mentor that I see when I need to see him. And yeah, we have so many different types of relationships in our lives.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Yeah, and I think it's so important to broaden the types of relationships you have, but for me having similar values is really important.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

Yeah. It's if you if anyone's ever done any research into blue zones, you know, community connectedness and the longevity, all that sort of stuff, relationships, you know, because we live in a time now where unfortunately loneliness is an epidemic.

SPEAKER_04 41:21

Yeah.

Repair Attempts And Bids For Connection

SPEAKER_01 41:22

You know, and it sounds like a it sounds like a harsh statement, but it it is, you know, loneliness can kill you. Oh yeah, there's yeah. Plenty of research has really linked the you know, poor poor mental health, low life, low quality of life, social isolation, social isolation, low life, low degree of life satisfaction, you know, so building relationships is is so important. And that and like we were saying about so many different types of relationships, like if you you don't feel like leaving the house, you're suffering from depression, anxiety, social anxiety, whatever it is that you're going through, and you think, you know, I've because I've been there where when you're in the depths of depression, talking to people is the last thing in the world that you want to do. Yeah. You know, when in actual fact, that's the time where you need to do it the most. Yeah, you know, it's the hard things, isn't it? It is the hard things, and because this, you know, like the relationship, I've been dying to get into the relationship life skill because this is something I talk about so much in the Laughter Clinic about the importance of connectedness and community. Yeah, you know, like for that person who may be at home struggling with their mental health and feel as though they can't leave the house or or it all feels overwhelming. Even the simple act of stepping outside if they hear the next door neighbor check their mail or something like that, you know, to just have some type of human interaction. Hey, how are you going? Beautiful, whatever, two words, three words. It's you know, it's the it's a minute relationship, but it's still a relationship. You've still connected with another human being. Yeah. You know. One of the one of the most popular podcast episodes that I've done at the moment is called um some I think it was like uh belonging, belongingness and resilience, the hidden mental health benefits of sport.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Oh yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

You know, and the jersey effect.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

The jersey effect.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

The jersey effect, you know, like you're walking through a shopping centre and you've got your team's jersey on and you see someone coming the other way and they've got the same jersey on. Instantly you feel connected to that person even though you don't know them. You and you connect and you feel connected to something bigger than yourself. Or it's a tribe. Yeah, it is. A tribe, right? And or even if they're walking towards you and they've got an opposition jersey on, right? You still feel a level of connection, even though it's the opposition, because you're both connected to the same code.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

You know, and I don't I don't know if you personally have ever done this, but you know, I'm a I'm a massive AFL fan. I I love the going the Aussie rules here in Australia. I'm a big Brisbane Lion supporter, and and there is something pretty amazing about getting, you know, walking to the game.

SPEAKER_04 44:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

You know, walking street after street to the game, wearing your scarf and your beanie and your hat and whatever or whatever it is, and you've got all your gear on, and you're with thousands of other strangers belonging, you know, and you feel connected to them. And then you get in the stadium at the Gabbah here, the and they kick a goal or they win the game, and I've been there with you know 40,000 people singing the song at the end, and it's goosebumps.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Yeah, you know, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

And yeah, and so the so many like relationships take all sorts of different types of forms. Sorry, I've gone off tangent there. No, no, but I get excited about it.

SPEAKER_05 45:14

Relationships is I get excited.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

But it is, it's a sense of belonging and a sense of um tribe that you know often we see, especially when people leave the service, you know, that disconnect from tribe.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

That must be hard. Yeah, it's it's like the loss of identity.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Loss of identity and a loss of and loss of tribe is yeah, a big challenge.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

So do they when you left the how long ago was it that you left the Air Force? A long time ago. Long time ago. Okay. Just give me the stick guy, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

It's been a long time.

Real Apologies And Accountability

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Yeah. Like I'm I'm not familiar with the like because you're associated with Buddy Up, so you know Do they do any like what's the word? Like we do training for them to go into the Air Force or to the Defence Force, but when they come out, are they given some type of you know, is there like an exit thing to transition? Yeah, to help them kind of become a civilian again?

SPEAKER_03 46:25

Yeah, there's uh there is a lot of talk about this in the veteran space, and the same with, you know, first responders.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

It's I know it was something that was talked about in the Royal Commission.

SPEAKER_03 46:36

Yeah, there there is more awareness around it, and there is more transition process for the military now. There was no transition process when I discharged, medically discharged. But yeah, there's n there's not enough support for anyone leaving a service to integrate into, you know, the the C world, the uniform off. There's we're getting better, but there's still a lot more needs to be done to to carry to carry ex-serving members through that process. Because it's a process.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah. Do you find do you find it benefits ex servicemen and women when they come out to maintain a relationship? You know, because I would imagine some people would want to maintain relationships with the people, and some people would want to not cut ties.

Check-ins That Strengthen Bonds

SPEAKER_03 47:37

Yeah. I think it depends on the individual experience and the nature of discharge. I've got friends that have discharged really well. And, you know, they're they're living living the dream and and happy as. And then I've have, you know, many colleagues and friends that have not have not thrived on the other side. So I think it it depends on the nature of how you've left, especially if it was by choice or or not. You know, for for met medical retirement, mental health retirement from any service, can be really difficult because it feels like a the choice was taken away from you. And especially if you had intention to be in for a long period of time, which most people who serve do, you know, often we're there for the we think we're going to be there for life or the long haul, or this is going to be a long-term career. So uh, yeah, it can be really challenging. But it can be, you know, you look at it's not just um serving people. You look at athletes, you look at Olympians, you know, that changing their identity from I'm an elite athlete, I'm an Olympian, to now my sporting career is over, who am I now? And we have seen that, you know, for for decades, some of the struggles that athletes have had you know, integrating into who am I now beyond this identity that I had. And I think it can even be, you know, uh professionals as well in in in any field, in any nature of work, if it was really something that most relationships aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 49:26

You know, like the the probably the most prominent relationships in our lives outside of you know your your partner, your husband, wife, intimate other is the relationships that you have with the people that you you're at work with, you know, because you we spend so much time at work.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

And they're often your social circle, your work, you know, the people that you work with are often your social life as well. So you can, you know, lose that as well. So yeah, it can be a real challenge moving through life. And I think also looking how relationships change through your lifespan as well, and that you know, a lot of us have friendships that we may have been very wounded, the loss of a friendship, there can be a grieving period over that as well. I even see it with my kids through the change through school, and I've had it through my adult life, that I've had friendships, really close friendships, come and go. And and some of them can be quite, you know, quite sad. So it's how are we maintaining relationships that are really important to us and are you gonna take us into a little relationship audit?

Empathy Versus Sympathy

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah, well, that's something that we probably, you know, we we don't do very often, but we probably should. Yeah. You know, because we all have relationships, you know, relationships that we're happy to invest in, and then other relationships that we kind of just we do the we do the what's required, you know, the maintenance kind of thing, the minimal that's required. So asking yourself, you know, a few questions here in this relationship audit that we're talking about. So well, the first one is does this relationship energize me or does it drain me?

SPEAKER_03 51:23

The energy vampires.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

Yes, we've all had those. So and I'm sure there's people listening that have had people in their life that when you're around them, they energize you, they lift you up, you just feel there's something about being in their presence that just brings life into you. Yeah. You know, and and then friendships. Yeah, and then at the other end of the scale, there's relationships where you come away from it, come away from a an interaction, just going, I am spent.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

You know, I don't know how I can maintain that anymore. Suck the life out of you.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

You know. So that's one question to ask, you know, obviously obviously leaning into the relationships that energize you and they're on your bus. Yeah, they're on your bus, leaning in leaning into that and leaning away from the ones that drain you. Do do I feel safe being myself in this relationship? You know, it's a big one. That's a big one. It's probably more so for intimate partner relationships, I suppose, but I you know, I think in the workplace, you really want to be able to be yourself and be listened to and respected, and you know?

SPEAKER_03 52:38

Yeah. I think if you can't be your true self around, you know, a friend or significant other, it's a bit of a warning sign.

SPEAKER_01 52:51

And is there mutual respect in this relationship? That's a big one. Is there mutual respect? Ask yourself that. Can we resolve conflicts constructively? Well, you know, we've just too spoken about communication, effective communication. So, you know, you can use some of those tools to help in the in the you know ability to resolve conflicts. And do we support each other's growth? That's a good one. Yeah. That's a really good one. Yeah. You know, whether it be your intimate other or your workplace, you know, does do the people around you want to l help lift you up? You know?

SPEAKER_03 53:28

Encourage, encourage your growth as well. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah, yeah. And I remember years ago listening to a Sunday morning business show, you know, they have those business shows Sunday morning and I don't have a life.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

I'm at the gym Sunday mornings.

Perspective Taking And Helpful Phrases

SPEAKER_01 53:47

So business shows. Oh, this was 20 years ago. This was 20 years ago, all right. But it was stuck in my brain that I remember it, right? And the guy was interviewing El McPherson. Oh, righty. Right? And saying, How did you go from being this, you know, world-class model to now being world-class entrepreneur and business woman, right? And I will never forget it. She said, I I worked on a simple theory that if I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm in the wrong room.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

Well, what's the saying that you're going to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_01 54:26

You know, surround yourself with, and that that's relationship building.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

What's the saying? You are the five people that you associate with the most time with. Yeah. And it's that that really feeds into the you know, the energy suckers or we will be opening a bumper sticker business at some time.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

We got so many pearlers. So uh three categories of relationships, nourishing, obviously, you know, just going back on the relationship audit, you know, over overviewing that. There's type of nourish nourishing relationships, the one that you want to keep investing in, you want to do what you can to see it grow. There's neutral type of relationships where you're going, well, it could possibly improve with some effort, could go either way. And then, you know, we've all had those relationships where that the that word toxic. You know, we've all experienced toxic relationships, unfortunately, haven't we?

SPEAKER_03 55:21

Yeah, and that's when we need to have some boundaries around how much you know time we spend exposing ourselves to those kind of relationships.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

So talk to us about love languages, Jody Allen.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Oh, I'm not I love the five love languages. Have you done it? Have you done the quiz?

SPEAKER_01 55:41

No, no, I have not.

SPEAKER_03 55:43

So I think it used to be free. I do believe you may have to um pay for it now.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

But I kind of get it. So what you're saying is you can get online and do a quiz and it'll tell you which one is you.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

And it gives you a rating of these five love languages.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Okay, run us through all.

Self-empathy And Reducing Self-stigma

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Okay. One is words of affirmation. So it's basically being validated verbal appreciation. Like, thank you for that coffee. Just made me, that means so much to me. You're amazing. So words of affirmation. Another one is quality time. So you really like to you prioritize having the undivided quality attention of your significant other. Receiving gifts. So a lot of people will think receiving gifts is oh, someone just likes to, you know, be brought expensive presents. And it's not about that, it's about the thoughtfulness of receiving a gift. So someone has actually gone into, you know, thinking about that person and and giving them a little a little gift. So it can be, you know, something really, you know, not expensive. Uh, it's not about the cost or the significance or the size of the gift. It's the thought that counts. It's the thought that counts. And it can be, yeah, someone's priority. Another one is acts of service. This is my number one helpful actions. So for me, if say one of my kids empties the dishwasher, that's an act of service. That's huge for me. And the other one is physical touch. So that can be simple hand holding, you know, a cuddle, an arm around each other. So when we're talking about these love languages, you think of like a pie divided up, and you answer these questions, and it will give you a rating and a percentage of how much each of those weighs to you. So it can be great to understand what your own love language is.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

So this is this is predominantly a couples thing. This is for couples, isn't it? And it's it's I as you as you went through that list, it's were you thinking about what No, I was thinking about the fact that they're all it's all communication.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Yes, but it's different styles of communication, isn't it? Yeah. So words of affirmation is is verbal communication. Yeah. Quality of time is presence. Yeah. Receiving gifts is a thought is thoughtfulness. Acts of service is you know, receive receiving something helpful and physical touches, physical connection. So what it does is it identifies your primary love language. So for me, my primary love language is an act of service. So it can be helpful when you're in a relationship knowing what your significant other's love language is, um, or even knowing what the love language is in your family unit, you know, because my kids know that acts of service are really meaningful to me. That's my number one. If you do something little for me, so my other daughter will, you know, will say, Mum, do you want a coffee? I'd love a coffee, you know. So it's those little things. So when you were when you can identify your own and your partner's love language, you can express it more, and then that other person feels really seen.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

And yeah, seen, validated, validated, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So and you know, it's I wonder if there's it'd be interesting to see if a survey's ever done to see which one is the most popular.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

Oh, I'm sure there would be. I'd have to look that up. That's yeah, that's a good mmm.

Meeting Needs And Nervous System Resets

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

I'm an ideas man. Um I reckon, I reckon, to be honest with you, I think it's going to be the one that is yours. I think acts of service would be. Yeah, I think that would probably be the top one for most people.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

You know, because we all like to receive gifts, who doesn't? But you know, at the end of the day, it's a gift. Quality time, yes, you know, like we all spend quality, you know, you can you could argue that sitting in a car for two hours driving somewhere is quality time together. Or I I don't I don't know. Yeah, having having a chat, yeah. Words of affirmation, verbal appreciation, you know, it's that communication. But I think acts of service, because to me I reckon that would be the most popular one because it's all about action. Yeah. Actions speak louder than words. You can say that you, you know, feel this way towards me or whatever, but what what are your actions?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

But there's no there's no right or wrong or you know, and I and I think if you understand, say, you know, your physical touch is your lowest rates the lowest, but your partner physical touch is number one, is the most important, then you might go, okay, it's not mean as meaningful to me as it is to my partner. What can I do to meet their needs a little bit more? Maybe occasionally, you know, is it offering a massage or just a hand on the shoulder or or going in for a hug, even if it might not be your priority at the time? It's meeting your partner where they're at and what their needs are, and expressing your own. You can kind of meet each other halfway, and man, it can really change the quality of relationships when you when you work that out. Yeah, it's great. I love it. Big fan? Big fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

She's a big fan, ladies and gentlemen.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

Big fan.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

So is it should we I'll try and find a link and to put in the show notes for people to try and track down the love language.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

There's a book. There's a book as well.

Tying It Together: Communicate, Relate, Empathise

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So okay, when relationships go, you know, because we're all about relationships here in this one, so it's not always love and beer and skittles and massages and words of affirmation, right? So but once again, the the Gottmans have got it covered because they do look at how do you repair repairing is so important. Yeah, how do you repair, you know. So after a conflict, it's important to make attempts, you know, make attempts to repair. And it's always, you know, well, I say always it's wrong. Sometimes it can be the same person that tries to put out the olive branch or whatever, you know, but just trying to meet people, like you said, halfway is to making small gestures to go, well, we both value this relationship. Well, let's both try and, you know, contribute to the repairing of it.

Five-Person Check-in Challenge And Wrap

SPEAKER_03 1:03:16

Yeah. And and also recognizing what is your partner's what is their bid to reconnect. So it could be, you know, maybe they're offering to make you a cup of tea or they want to show you something funny, or you know, it's you might not recognize it, but it could be their way of trying to reconnect with you is you know, I like that term, bid for connection. It's a bid bid a bid for connection is what we call it. And it's you know, often we can miss our partners what their bid for connection is, but once we recognize it and learn what their bids are and what they look like, it could be do you want to go for a walk with me? Do you want to go to the shops with me? Do you want to watch this movie with me, which is what my oldest bid for connection is? Let's watch this show together. That's a bid to connect. So recognizing those, I think, is super important.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Yeah, yeah. And knowing that sometimes an apology, you know, if you've got to apologize about something a real one, a real apology. There's a whole book. I don't know if you realise this, but there is a whole book. This lady's written this whole book about apologies.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:45

What on how to apologize? Everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Fuck I tell you. I listened to the audiobook of it, and after about two hours, I'm like, just say sorry already, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:54

But like Was she dancing around it? No, no, no, no, no, no, didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

There's all she talks about all different it's actually really good. I'm dismissing it, but it's a it's a pretty powerful book because it makes you realise that apol the simple act of apologizing isn't that cut and dried.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

You know, and it's the meaning behind it. Well, yeah, and and you know, and you think how many times we say sorry in a day where you've got nothing to apologize for.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yeah. You know. Or if you say I'm sorry, but or I'm sorry you feel like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

That's the big one that she does talk about. I'm sorry you feel that way is not being sorry at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:38

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:39

Uh often people will in their apology deflect and don't take any accountability, so it's not r uh really an apology.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:49

Yeah. So uh I will uh I'll try and find the link in the show notes to that book, my friends, if you want to spend, you know, a dozen hours listening to

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Different ways to apologize.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Different ways to apologise. But it's a good book. Like I you know, it's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Well I imagine it would be good if uh So I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:10

I'm really sorry if I've ditched it. And I'm genuinely sorry because it is actually a really good book. Good. You should be genuinely sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

And we'll we'll quote one of the apologies in the show notes. Yeah. So yeah. Repair attempts and recognizing and accepting if your partner is trying to repair as well. Or your child. It's not just it's not just couples. That's right. Um, you know, it can be friendships as well if um someone's trying to make a bid for repair in a friendship.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Well, not only bid for repair, but check-ins. Let's talk about relationship check-ins because they're big.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:55

You know, they're very big. I'm a big fan of this at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Yeah. Yeah, you are good at checking in.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Thanks. Yeah. You know, if I know people around me are going through some stuff, I like to keep tabs on them and just let them know that you're not you're not going through it alone. Yeah. I'm with you if you need anything.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:14

You know, I'm here. Yeah. I don't know what I could do, but and sometimes that just in itself is something.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:21

You just yeah, you just let people know I'm here. I'm in your corner. Yep. I got your back.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:27

No pressure.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Yep. And you know, the check-in, like, oh this came from someone else. I can't remember who this came from, but I liked it, so I adopted it. So the check-in was choose five people in your in your contact list and just send, you know, in your friends list or whoever, whether they don't have to be work colleagues, friends, family members, whoever, just five people that you haven't checked in with for a while, and just send them a just send them a little quick message to say, I think the one that I said when I did this before Christmas was, hey, haven't spoken to you for a while. Just want you to know how much I appreciate our friendship.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

Lovely.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:11

And I hope you're doing okay. And I'll look forward to it next time we catch up. So just something like that. Yeah. You know, send it to five people. And in actual fact, sending that to five people sparked, like a couple of them just replied going, mate, really appreciate it, love you too, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:28

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

But in actual fact, it sparked three meaningful conversations with three of those five friends who were really struggling with stuff that I didn't know about. And like two messages came back in actual fact saying, mate, you've got no idea how much I I what this has meant to me today of all days, with all the shit that I've been going through.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

You know, so you just never know, you know, relationships, you just gotta reach out to people.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:56

That reminds me of a study that I read about last year where they got a group of people to connect with, so reach out to someone from your past that it's been a like long years and reconnect with that person. And then they did all like mental health measures questions on both parties. And it was significant how much just reaching out to someone from way back from your past that you haven't connected with in a long time, how it positively impacted the person that reached out and the person that received the message as well. It was, yeah, yeah. And it was, they were quite surprised how much you know it positively impacted them.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:46

Yeah. So, you know, checking into, you know, what what what are some questions that you would ask if you if you're checking in, do you reckon?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:57

Well, I like what you um reached out to your friends.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

See, mine wasn't really a question. Mine was just saying, I just want you to know that I appreciate I appreciate you. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:09

Well, I think it, you know, depends if you're talking to, you know, your significant other, it's you know asking questions of you know, how you're feeling, is there anything I can do for you? Do you want to have a chat? What do you, is there anything you need from me? Because often, you know, if you're having a chat, like I was saying with my kids, it'll be do you want me to listen or do you want me to help? You know, can what do you need from me? How are you traveling? You know, like I I'll notice with my kids, it'll be how how I always, every time that as soon as I come, how was your day? What went well today? Did anything go wrong? Did anything stress you out, drive you nuts? And it opens up further, you know, conversation and that as well. You know, so we can if something starts out like a little small issue, you know, you can have a chat about it before it becomes a huge issue. It's just, you know, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:20

I like that coming, I like that coming from an a angle of, you know, what do you need? Like you said, with the kids, you know. Do you think that's a good idea? Do you need me to just sit here and listen? Is that what you need? Or do you need me to help you try and nut this out?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:35

You know, do you need a sounding board?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

Yeah, and no, I guarantee you, 90% of the time my kids will say, I just want you to listen, mum.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:44

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:44

Yeah. They just want to vent. And that's, you know, often what your partner or your friends. I I have one of my best friends of 30 years, oh, I love her so much. And she'll ring me and she'll go, right. And I'll go, okay. She goes, I've got so much to tell you. And I'll say, you go. She goes, Okay, I'll go first. And so she just goes for it. Vent, vent, vent, vent, vent, vim, vent, vent, vent. And then she'll we'll we'll talk about that for a while, and then she'll go, okay, your turn. And then it's my turn. And I'm like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. So, and we crack up laughing, but it's like, right, let's go. Let's get amongst it. Yeah, get amongst it. And that's like, you know, sometimes all someone wants you to do is is be an ear, um, and you'll be surprised what what comes up.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

Yeah, well, that's it. That's where the empathy comes in, you know, because there's a big difference between sympathizing. Uh between sympathy and empathy is a huge difference. And that's our uh that's our last life skill for this episode, my friend. So we've gone communication helps us express what we need to express to the people around us, which is, you know, relationships and gives us that connection. But empathy is the glue. It is the glue that makes it all work, it all come together. And empathy is, you know, like I said, there's a big difference between sympathy and empathy. Sympathy is, you know, someone going, oh, you know, I'm really sorry, you know, uh that you're going through that, your poor thing, all of that. Whereas empathy is, you know, someone going, well, you know what, mate, if I was going through all of that shit, I'd be struggling as well, you know, having trying to validate their feelings and and trying to put yourself in their shoes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:29

That's what empathy is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:31

It's not the same as agreement, and it's it's about trying to understand where they're at.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:38

Yeah, from their perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

From their perspective, you know, without judgment.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:44

No, exactly. And that's um, yeah, we love on our programme, we share Renee Brown's. What a great video. Yeah, it's a great video. It's yeah, it's gold. And it doesn't matter how many times I watch it, I still stick around to watch it again because it's got some perlers in it. But, you know, she talks about the qual what the qualities of empathy are, and just as we were talking before, you know, perspective taking, seeing from their point of view, sitting alongside them and seeing, you know, what their viewpoint is, where where it is for them, without judgment, you know, and recognizing emotion in others. So recognizing that, you know, again, without judgment, where their emotion and why perhaps they're behaving the way that they are, you know, instead of uh just shutting that down and saying What's communication, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:49

Being aware of, you know, not only their verbal communication, but their physic what are they communicating to you physically as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:56

Yeah. And things like, you know, it could be don't cry, it's gonna be okay. You know, and it's that's not really sitting and being and empathizing with someone like you. This is really shit, and I'm sitting here alongside you. That's that's empathy. And what that does is it really builds connection and strengthens relationships when you show true empathy. And there are people that struggle with empathy, it doesn't come easily to them because you know often it can be going quick quickly into judgment or quickly into I can fix it or I'm gonna try and make you feel better.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:47

Whereas empathy is I'm sitting here alongside you, and and again, one of those questions is what do you need from me? And often a person when you're sitting alongside them in despair will be, I just need you to be here.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:06

Yeah, and that's you know, that's a big thing in the you know, in the field of suicide prevention, sitting a friend of mine in terms of has the term uh being able to sit uh with people amongst their mess. You know, yeah. Sometimes it's important to just sit with pe I just need you to sit with me while I just sit in my mess at the moment. Yeah, you know, hold my hand, be here for me. Just I just need someone to just be. Yeah. You know, and not try and fix it, not try and, you know, say, like you said, suck it up, move on, this, that or the next thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:53

Oh, I feel so sorry for you. You know, at least you have this, or it could be it could be worse is one of the top ones. It could be worse, or there's so many people worse off than you, or some people will say it about themselves, oh, there's people a lot worse of off than me right now. Well, there'll always be someone worse off with than than all of us, but you know, we still need to validate our very real experience that how we're feeling about something. You know, and empathy empathy is I'm here with you. Yeah, yeah. And other helpful things to say that sounds really hard. I can see why you'd feel like that. I can under yeah, that's the big one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

You know, if I was going through all that shit, I'd be going sideways as well. You know, because it justifies them feeling in the depths of despair.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

You know, like it I remember when I was going out doing a lot of rural stuff, you know, you're talking to farmers and all sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:58

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

It's heartbreaking the shit that they go through, you know. And you know, with drought and if it's not drought, it's floods or it's you know, losing crops or whatever, and and you go, I don't, you know, I don't know how you do it. You know, like I I really feel for you while you're going through that stuff because it must be so hard to navigate.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:24

You know, and just yeah, sometimes it's it's about validating where they're at and saying, you know what, you have every right to feel the way that you feel right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Yeah. And really important tonight, minimize. And like we've said a few times now, resist the urge to fix. Yeah. To fix and solve and go in, which we can often do because we think we're being helpful, but it's all not always the case. Um, unless someone's directly, you know, if you're using that question, what do you need from me? I'd like you to, you know, sp be here for with me for a couple of days or something, you know, then you can act on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

Yeah, yeah. Well that's the that's the perspective taking, you know. Pause, you know, taking a pause on your own perspective and then asking asking yourself in relation to the person that you're with, what might what might they be feeling right now while they're while they're going through all of that, or what mo what might they be thinking, you know, what what because feeling one thing, thinking something is something different. And what experiences might have shaped the position that they're in, you know, what's the what's the background that's brought them to the place that they're at now? And and and what are their needs, you know, what are they what are they needs, you know, and that's one of the things that I really love about my friend and colleague Jacinta Horgood, who I had on the podcast a couple of weeks ago from from the uni, she co-designed the STARS protocol, which is a here we go, systematic tailored assessment for responding to suicidality.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:13

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:14

Mm-hmm. And it's a needs-based assessment of a person who's in a suicidal crisis. Yeah. You know, where you sit with them and go, what is it that you need right now to help you get through this? Yeah. You know. So it's uh yeah, and and because that's a big one, you know, what needs might they have at this very moment to help get through? And after you think those things, you know, thinking to yourself, you know, what might they be feeling and what are they what might they be needing right now, verbalise it, you know. We've just spoken about communication in this episode, you know. It sound, you know, verbalize, you know, it sounds like you're feeling this, that, or, you know, the other. I imagine this is difficult for you because, you know, of these sets of circumstances. Or if you're find yourself in a place where you're struggling to actually get a grasp on what it is, just say, look, you know, help help me to understand, help me to understand things from your perspective. Yeah. Like, I mean, how many times do we want in your lifetime would it have been nice for someone to say that to you?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

Yeah. Or, you know, tell tell me more about that, you know, because people will often, oh, I'm talking too much about myself. I'll stop. But if yeah, tell me, tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

So talk to us about the uh talk tell me more, Jodie Alard, about the uh the the the phases, the phases that uh that can we can have when it comes to empathy.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:45

Do you mean these phrases that we've empathy empathy?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

Phrases.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:50

Phrases. Phrases. What did I say? Yeah, phases.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:53

Oh, I do apologize. I did mean phrases.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

Well, we've we've pretty much covered them already. Well that's empathizing with them. So we've pretty much covered that. But I think it's we can move on to the well, definitely opening up the conversation about stigma.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:11

Well, that's having empathy for yourself, you know. We when we talk about stigma in mental health, we talk, you know, a lot of people talk about like societal stigma, what you know or organizational stigma towards a certain cohort. But uh one of the most powerful types of stigma is the one that we put on ourselves. Yeah. You know, that's self-judgment. Yeah, self-criticism. Yeah, self-criticism, because the two the two biggest dangers to come out of self-criticism and and and and self-judgment is it reduces the likelihood of help seeking. Yes. Because you're putting shame on yourself. Yeah, but and the byproduct of that is it impedes your recovery.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

Yeah, but it prolongs it, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:02

Prolong that's right, prolong suffering and impedes your recovery. You know. So having that empathy for yourself, you know, saying to yourself, you know, when you're going through some shit, just acknowledging that this is really hard for me right now. Yeah. You know, and if I need to sit with it, I need to sit with it. It makes sense that I feel this way given all of the shit that I'm going through because it's just it life is messy.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:31

You know, and you're often having a natural human reaction, response to something. That's right. And yeah, having that self-compassion, it can be really hard to help because the inner critic is can be so loud, yeah, it can be really hard to practice self-compassion.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:53

Yeah. But having the, you know, and this is where we you know, like I said, they all I know I'm harping on about it, but about life skills all interacting with each other, having that self-awareness that when you're in that, you know, shitstorm, for want of a better term, saying to yourself, what is it I need right now? You know? Yeah. If you haven't got someone there saying to you, what do you need? Asking yourself, what what is it I need right now? You know, do I need the company of someone else? Do I need to do I need to go outside and get some sunshine? Do I need to get out my journal? Do I need to start writing this shit out to try and get all the thoughts and stuff out of my head?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

You know, do I need to go to the beach? Do I need nature? Do I need to put my feet in the ocean? You know, what what is it I need right now that's going to help me get through this?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:49

Yeah. And it's amazing when you meet that need, how good it feels, and it's a nervous system reset. Often when it involves nature. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah, nature pill. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:05

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, empathy, it all ties into each other. Effective communication is the vehicle, allows us to express empathy because we're communicating effectively and which is good for our relationships, builds relationships, and and our relationships require good communication. So, and empathy is the fuel that brings it all together. It's all pretty cool the way it I just it it all ties in beautifully together, you know. So the complete connection process is uh is something pretty special.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:41

Building connection.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:43

Yeah. Communicating effectively. Remember, we're using those I statements. I statements that's right. We're active listening, we're putting our phone down, we're being assertive, not passive or aggressive.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:57

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:58

We're building our relationships so we're investing in those relationships that nourish us. That fill our cup. Who's on our bus?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

Who's on our bus?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:08

We're speaking each other's love languages.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:12

The love languages, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:16

We're making repair attempts after conflict, and we're acknowledging repair attempts from our our other people in our orbit. Uh regular check-ins.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:29

How are you going? Yeah. What do you need from me?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:32

That's the that's a challenge, peeps. Do that. Do that. That's a that's a call to action in this podcast. Is five five people. Five peeps. Five peeps in your contact list.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:42

I only go and do it. You know, when I get home.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:44

And just and just something along the lines of haven't spoken to you in a while, appreciate you. So glad you're in my life. Look forward to seeing you next time. Or hope you're doing well or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:55

It'll mean so much to the person receiving.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:58

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:01

And we're practicing empathy. We've banged on about empathy, you know, looking at others' perspectives, sitting alongside them, validating their feelings, being present without trying to fix and solve, and practicing self-empathy, self-compassion towards ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:21

Yeah, it's cool. This has been a great episode. I know, you know, we we may have gone off topic of off topic a few times in this one, but you know, that was all you it was all me, right? Which is really weird because it's all about communicating and I'm just babbling on about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

I'm always on topic, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:36

I wouldn't go that far. So uh yeah, communication, relationships, and empathy. It's the it's the heart blood of everything, you know, like everything we talk about in suicide prevention is communicate and and connecting with people, you know. Like I can't stress how important it is enough to have social connection and And if anybody's interested, there are a couple of podcast episodes last year, last season. There's one uh all about social connection and one about, you know, how to feel how to commit community, how to build community, you know, and the what the different types of community look like. You know, mate of mine does runs trivia. He runs like a he's got a really successful trivia business, and he has people that have been coming to these trivia nights for years every week. Oh wow and it's the only time they leave the house and it brings them all out together. Yeah, that's great. It's incredible, yeah, you know, and that's that's their community.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:42

Yeah, find your tribe.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

That's the tribe, you know. They've had engagements, they've had births, they've had deaths, all in, and it's all been celebrated as a tribe.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

You know, it's beautiful, it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:54

Yeah, put yourself out there, put yourself out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:58

So there you go, my friends. This is uh bringing, we're gonna wind this up, we're gonna bring this bad boy home because next week's episode is the final instalment of the Life Skills Masterclass here with Martin McConnell and Jodie Allen. And uh, and so the last one brings it all together. So the three life skills that we're gonna talk about next episode will be managing your emotions, which we've touched on throughout the the these three episodes. So managing your emotions as a standalone life skill. We're also introducing mindfulness and lifestyle medicine, which I think is really cool. I think it's gonna be a fantastic episode to finish on to bring out to bring it all together. And I really appreciate everything that you've you've brought to the table here, and especially I can't wait to hear, you know, we dive into some lifestyle medicine stuff because that is real, you know, prevention, early intervention. I that's where I love the early intervention stuff. Yeah, you know, keeping the population healthy to start with. Yeah, love it. So uh there you go. Any final thoughts, Jody Allen, before we wrap this up?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:07

Oh no, I've had a I've had a great time and I'm looking forward to our last wrap-up, and yeah, it's been a great journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

Awesome, awesome. There you go, folks. So uh hopefully wherever you are listening, you've got something out of this episode, and we really appreciate your time because I know time is uh your most valuable asset, so I really appreciate your time in tuning in. If something that you've heard strikes a chord with you, please share this episode with friends, family, whoever it is, and and follow us and and leave a comment, and that helps the algorithm basically get to uh get to the people that need it. So, as always, my friends, wherever you are listening, be kind to yourself and be kind to those around you. We'll chat to you next week. Cheers. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:54

Thank you for listening. The information contained in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended, nor should it ever replace advice received from a physician or mental health professional. Want more info? Visit thelumpterclinic.com.au. If you enjoyed the episode, please share and subscribe. Thanks again for listening to the Lumpter Clinic Podcast with your host, Mike McCondu.